New 1299 review -- Duc seems to be better than the R1

[Gramps]

I have been riding since May 2007 -- until April, I had owned 5 bikes, exclusively Yamahas.

(2007 R1, 2007 FZ6, 2006 FJR, 2009 FZ1, 2008 FJR) and bike #6 is a 2010 Ducati Multistrada S - Electronic Ohlins suspension w/ the Ohlins semi-active suspension module.

The Yamahas are all great bikes -- relatively inexpensive, the best service intervals and great all-rounders.

The Ducati on the other hand feels very much like a premium sport bike. The look, the handling, the sound, the power. To put it in car terms it's like upgrading from a Corvette to a Ferrari.

But the Ducati should be better - it's double the cost of the Yamaha bikes... even used at 5 years the Ducati was the most expensive bike I've purchased - was even more than my 07 R1 brand new out the door. The used Ducati cost exactly double what I paid for my used 09 FZ1.

But, Ducati comes at a price of expensive maintenance. Last weekend, a few of us were out for a ride and we noticed I was puddling fork oil -- so to have the seals redone means a trip to Denver and $280 (better than Fey Myers who quoted $413 in labor and $120-170 in parts.) Then there's the 15K mile service which runs $900 to $1500 depending on which shop you take it to. An annual expense some years.

But that's the price which comes with having a red bike with the word "Ducati" emblazened on it.

I think my next bike will be a 2015 Multistrada, a couple years down the road.

Clovis

Agreed

[Drano]

I dont think that comparing the stock R1 to the 1299 is even and apples to apples comparison. And if the field was leveled I think the R1 would smoke the 1299... say adding 300cc to the R1.

Two different displacements. Two different types of engines.

If you were to compare the R1 to anything, it would be other 1000cc motorcycles. In that class I dont think there is anyone that even compares to the new R1.

You miight start to have a more fair comparison between the R1M and the 1299. Yamaha got 200hp out of a 1000cc engine, thats pretty impressive.

According to FIM rules, the maximum allowable displacement for a 4 cylinder superbike is 1000cc, and 1200cc for a 2 cylinder. The whole reason is to keep things fair, and allow manufacturers to maintain their creative vision for their motorcycle. They found that, at the same displacement, the 2 cylinder was at a disadvantage because it had, wait for it, 2 less cylinders, and the disparity in performance only increased once both motors were subjected to the intense level of tuning they receive in the superbike class. So, they were granted an increase in displacement to help level the field. The Panigale R is still 1198cc to conform to FIM rules, but it costs $34,000 due, in part, to more costly engine components. The rest is probably just for exclusivity sake. I can understand why Ducati pushed the displacement of the Panigale up to 1285cc. It was meant drop the cost of an already expensive machine that has to compete with an ever increasing number of supersports that are pushing upwards of 200hp. It was also meant to lessen the brutality of the power curve that was present on the 1199.

As for comparing the R1 to the Pani, it has a lot more to do with features than horsepower. The R1 is touted as having the most sophisticated and comprehensive electronics package in the world. That was once a claim only high-end bikes like the Ducati could make, so it's only fair to put Yamaha's money where their mouth is. Not that they really need to, in MotoAmerica, the R1Ms ridden by Hayes and Beaubier lead the championship. In fact, they're dominating it.

[laspariahs]

My next bike will be a ducati, and I've now owned every sport bike brand but a suzuki and BMW.

As for all the modern bikes being equally reliable, I doubt that aprilia is equally reliable, ducati probably is though.

[rybo]

I've ridden both bikes in question on the racetrack and can say that they are both extremely impressive machines that far out scale my capabilities as a rider.

Today I race an 899 and it's the best motorcycle I've ever owned. Yes, it comes with problems, but racing anything comes with problems, that's part of the challenge.


To slightly shift the topic I'm starting to get concerned that the motorcycles have gotten "too good". I feel the same about the tires. The current crop of street tires are something that I would have done very bad things to have as race tires 10 years ago and the machines are capable of using them (the contact patch remains the limiting factor). The problem is that the bikes and the tires mask our errors as pilots. Most of the time this is a good thing, it keeps us on the wheels and off of the ground, but when we hit the ground we're doing it with lots more energy. We can go faster and "feel" safer because the bikes and tires are too good.

In the old days we would fall down at reasonably low speeds with lots of warning from the bike. These days the falls are more violent and come with less warning because, while the absolute limit is much higher, so is the consequence for failure.

Both the R1 and the 1299 are awesome bikes - I know which one I picked, and I'd pick it again. For the road I'd even strongly consider the 899 over the big brother - it has all of the style, most of the electronics and a more reasonable price. On top of that it's a hoot to ride.

[Gramps]

Both the R1 and the 1299 are awesome bikes - I know which one I picked, and I'd pick it again. For the road I'd even strongly consider the 899 over the big brother - it has all of the style, most of the electronics and a more reasonable price. On top of that it's a hoot to ride.

Man what a great point of view. I have not personally ridden an 899 but have heard nothing but great things about them especially for a road bike. I agree with everything you are saying here Scott and thanks for your input.

[Gramps]

[QUOTE=laspariahs;772529]My next bike will be a ducati, QUOTE]

Why?

[tecknojoe]

I've ridden both bikes in question on the racetrack and can say that they are both extremely impressive machines that far out scale my capabilities as a rider.

Today I race an 899 and it's the best motorcycle I've ever owned. Yes, it comes with problems, but racing anything comes with problems, that's part of the challenge.


To slightly shift the topic I'm starting to get concerned that the motorcycles have gotten "too good". I feel the same about the tires. The current crop of street tires are something that I would have done very bad things to have as race tires 10 years ago and the machines are capable of using them (the contact patch remains the limiting factor). The problem is that the bikes and the tires mask our errors as pilots. Most of the time this is a good thing, it keeps us on the wheels and off of the ground, but when we hit the ground we're doing it with lots more energy. We can go faster and "feel" safer because the bikes and tires are too good.

In the old days we would fall down at reasonably low speeds with lots of warning from the bike. These days the falls are more violent and come with less warning because, while the absolute limit is much higher, so is the consequence for failure.

Both the R1 and the 1299 are awesome bikes - I know which one I picked, and I'd pick it again. For the road I'd even strongly consider the 899 over the big brother - it has all of the style, most of the electronics and a more reasonable price. On top of that it's a hoot to ride.

What'd you think of that new R1 on the track?

[laspariahs]

[QUOTE=Gramps;772563]

My next bike will be a ducati, QUOTE]

Why?

I really like the 1199, best motorcycle I've owned. The 1299 is supposed to be even better of course, I'm sure whatever they put out after the 1299 will be even better. Ducati seems to have a good balance, of reliability style etc.

Second best, Aprilia, when it was running.

[Okrapp]

I've ridden both bikes in question on the racetrack and can say that they are both extremely impressive machines that far out scale my capabilities as a rider.

Today I race an 899 and it's the best motorcycle I've ever owned. Yes, it comes with problems, but racing anything comes with problems, that's part of the challenge.


To slightly shift the topic I'm starting to get concerned that the motorcycles have gotten "too good". I feel the same about the tires. The current crop of street tires are something that I would have done very bad things to have as race tires 10 years ago and the machines are capable of using them (the contact patch remains the limiting factor). The problem is that the bikes and the tires mask our errors as pilots. Most of the time this is a good thing, it keeps us on the wheels and off of the ground, but when we hit the ground we're doing it with lots more energy. We can go faster and "feel" safer because the bikes and tires are too good.

In the old days we would fall down at reasonably low speeds with lots of warning from the bike. These days the falls are more violent and come with less warning because, while the absolute limit is much higher, so is the consequence for failure.

Both the R1 and the 1299 are awesome bikes - I know which one I picked, and I'd pick it again. For the road I'd even strongly consider the 899 over the big brother - it has all of the style, most of the electronics and a more reasonable price. On top of that it's a hoot to ride.

This post reminded me of a recent article. https://rideapart.com/articles/11-re...nt-a-literbike

[Aaron]

That article is terrible. The first reason isn't a reason at all, it's just telling us literbikes are fast. The second is a dumb reason, you don't want a literbike because it's easier to close a gap with it? Wait a second, that's why I do want a literbike. The 3rd reason has no statistical fact behind it at all, and is flat-out wrong. The displacement has nothing to do with the odds of theft. That comes down to ease of the theft only. Want to know the most stolen item today? Clothing. Hardly the most expensive or lucrative take.

The 4th reason is also flat-out incorrect. Just leave traction control where it's at, and ride. Nothing says you have to use all 200hp when it's raining outside. But if you want to, go ahead, TC will keep you in shape. And the tires are the same for the 600s, if they suck in the rain they suck in the rain across the board. And FWIW, I only used Pilot Roads on my 193hp literbike, and did a thousand miles plus in the rain, and several track days.

5 is partially correct, but only partially. First, a literbike can hit 170 at PMP, and no, a 600 cannot hit 160 at PMP.

Number 6 is also flat-out wrong, factually incorrect. Most cops don't even know the difference. And for the few that do, you're telling me they sit with a radar and target the literbike in the pack? Ha, get real.

Reason 7 is hugely exaggerated. Yes, tires will wear slightly quicker. Chains and sprockets will too. But having to rebuild the suspension every service interval? What? And new chains every 4,000 miles? Mine went 4 times that, on the fastest bike made at the time.

8 is also factually incorrect. The literbike share nearly identical triangles with the 600s. And I've done plenty of 500 mile days on mine, and I'm 6 foot fucking 4.

Number 10 makes huge assumptions. My first real bike was a SV1000S, followed by the RR. I've learned more than I could have ever imagined. Just because I've got a fast bike, doesn't mean I can't learn. I get faster every track day.

Number 11 is different for every person, and my bike no longer terrifies me at all. Did it once upon a time? Most certainly. But I still remember the day I cracked the throttle on a 95hp F4i like it was yesterday, I simply didn't have the balls to hold it wide open it was so fucking scary.

That article flat sucks, it completely misses the 3 main advantages of a 600. They're cheaper to buy, get better fuel economy, and are better on insurance. Ok, they said one sentence about cheaper insurance. That's it. Of their 11 bullshit reasons, 9 is the only one that's actually right.

[Gramps]

[QUOTE=laspariahs;772570]

I really like the 1199, best motorcycle I've owned. The 1299 is supposed to be even better of course, I'm sure whatever they put out after the 1299 will be even better. Ducati seems to have a good balance, of reliability style etc.

Second best, Aprilia, when it was running.

"when it was running" made me laugh. The 1299 is a different bike than the 1199. I wouldn't trade my 1199 in for one but I would have one for sure.

There is rumor that the 1299 will be the last version of the Panigale due to a need for a different racing platform. We could see some interesting things from the Italians in the next few years.

[rybo]

What'd you think of that new R1 on the track?

It was really good. Yamaha clearly did their homework (and bought some S1000R's ) because this bike is clearly aimed at the BMW.

I got to ride it back to back with a previous gen R1 and I can say that the two bikes are worlds apart.

That being said, I really like the motorcycle I have and I wouldn't trade it for the new R1.

[rybo]

This post reminded me of a recent article. https://rideapart.com/articles/11-re...nt-a-literbike

Except that Aaron thinks I'm a better writer than the folks at ride apart (and I agree with him).

I don't limit my statement to liter bikes. I think that all modern sporting motorcycles are possibly "too good". Modern 600's would CREAM a CBR900RR from 1993, and that bike was touted as "Legendary" a "Game Changer" etc.

At the Yamaha Champions Riding school instructors and students frequently lapped the courses they use for training faster on the R6 than they did on the 2014 R1. The old R1 wasn't a great example of a liter bike, but it demonstrates how close these things are in real world terms. At the first MotoAmerica round the top Daytona Sportbike qualifiers would have been in the first 3 rows of the Superbike (1000) grid.

We have a problem, and that problem is that the bikes are improving faster than the riders and as a result our sport is (in many ways) becoming more dangerous.

[Aaron]

You are definitely a much better writer.

[Gramps]

You are definitely a much better writer.

Agreed

[rybo]

You are definitely a much better writer.

Agreed

Thanks guys!

[madvlad]

Sit down with Scott one day man, one of the most wise riders I've spoke with and a great person at that.

[GMR]

I'd take an R6 over either of them :-D

if I wanted more low end power, I wouldn't be riding sport bikes

[Gramps]

I'd take an R6 over either of them :-D

if I wanted more low end power, I wouldn't be riding sport bikes

How about more power everywhere? It's not about just low end power. What about all the rider aids to help you go faster? Some people don't want them. Are you one of those?

[Colorado S14]

The Ducati on the other hand feels very much like a premium sport bike. The look, the handling, the sound, the power. To put it in car terms it's like upgrading from a Corvette to a Ferrari.

But the Ducati should be better - it's double the cost of the Yamaha bikes... even used at 5 years the Ducati was the most expensive bike I've purchased - was even more than my 07 R1 brand new out the door. The used Ducati cost exactly double what I paid for my used 09 FZ1.

But, Ducati comes at a price of expensive maintenance. Last weekend, a few of us were out for a ride and we noticed I was puddling fork oil -- so to have the seals redone means a trip to Denver and $280 (better than Fey Myers who quoted $413 in labor and $120-170 in parts.) Then there's the 15K mile service which runs $900 to $1500 depending on which shop you take it to. An annual expense some years.

But that's the price which comes with having a red bike with the word "Ducati" emblazened on it.

I think my next bike will be a 2015 Multistrada, a couple years down the road.

Clovis

The Yen has killed the JDM bikes, they used to be way cheaper but not anymore. You still pay a Ducati Premium but not nearly double, the R1 is $16,500 and the Panigale is $19,500. The rest of the JDM bikes look like jokes to me at these prices. When you can get the S1000RR or the RSV4 for the same $15,500 as the ZX10R, GSX-1000, CBR1000 and the euro bikes better/higher quality components and the newest electronics why the hell would anyone in their right mind go get one of the others? Not to mention that the BMW, Aprilia, Ducati are also winning most of the comparison tests. I hope the R1 compares favorably to the others when the same day comparison tests start happening, it will make things a bit more interesting.

My next bike will also either be the new Multistrada or the new Tuono V4 1100.