2015-10-01 tragedy unfolding in Roseburg OR

[Spooph]

Your post didn't get unnoticed. Just like others have said there is no middle ground anymore. We already have a ton of firearms regulations. That is being ignored.

In Colorado alone you have background checks for everything even p2p sales. You have the original laws still in place. You have the federal laws still in place. How many more laws are you asking 2a supporters to give into for this so called middle ground?

I mean it's not like I can go down to the local gas station and buy ten thousand rounds of armour piercing and a fully auto ar15.

So I mean really how much more do we have to give before we truly start to deal with the problems here?

ugh, this is getting frustrating... I post the information so that the argument can progress. If the responders in this thread don't go over that information (by watching all 4 videos and reading the article), like I follow the articles which are being posted by others, and thus, understanding what they are saying, the argument won't progress...

I don't expect the citizens to give up any more rights. I believe I've already stated the logical argument on the first page, and through that logical argument it shows that further regulation won't solve anything along with supporting your suggestion of how to keep our kids safe, right now. My attempt here is to show the various factors which enter into this issue, and all of the other things that need to be addressed to solve the problem. I believe I've listed those out as well, and provided a road map to connect the dots in between them. I have gotten no questions or critique as to the information I have provided...

this leads me to believe that those with the opinions are here simply to yell and scream, not to try and help solve the problem. I'm not here to yell and scream, I'm here to solve the problem.

I take 100% responsibility for my existence, in my own personal protection as I do my safety on the bike on the road, as I do in providing for me and mine. To be able to take 100% responsibility, I need to understand everything which is involved with those goals and my impact on the world, etc. I also know that I don't know everything, but I do know that intelligent discussion is a vehicle with which to continue my understand.

Simple throwing the same arguments at the same people is, by definition, insanity. If it's not working, at least display your own maturity and intelligence by bringing something new to the argument.

Only when we put our ego to the side and look at the facts, and argue them against one another, instead of arguing ourselves against one another will we get anywhere. Dumb people confuse arguing concept against individual values, and although concept is grounded is individual values (as one can become the other), it doesn't predispose us being on opposite sides.

Drama is bad decisions perpetuated by ignorance. Don't be drama for it betrays your ignorance and bad decisions. Be a solution, by making good decisions and being educated.

[Captain Obvious]

I have to say to you. The idea that people can just go buy anything and everything they ever wanted is kind of why you got lumped into that category. We have very strict regulations on firearms. Violating those regulations comes with very tough punishments.

No, this lumping occurred BEFORE I made the above post you quoted. It is an attitude of "you are either fully with us or against us". And i think this is the first time I have really engaged in a firearms discussion here so there is no "you said in the past....". It is the knee jerk reaction of black or white, but no grey.

[Nolan]

So wait, do we have p2p sales in CO? Do they require a background check?

Yes private sales must go through a licensed dealer to complete the background check.

[GMR]

I'm agreeing with everything Townie is saying

[Captain Obvious]

Yes private sales must go through a licensed dealer to complete the background check.

And what is the status on having all guns registered in Colorado? I am asking as I don't know, but Townie submits that P2P having background checks cannot work because it requires registration of all firearms. So, are all guns in Colorado registered and tracked? I sure know mine are not, but I haven't purchased since I have been here.

[#1Townie]

And what is the status on having all guns registered in Colorado? I am asking as I don't know, but Townie submits that P2P having background checks cannot work because it requires registration of all firearms. So, are all guns in Colorado registered and tracked? I sure know mine are not, but I haven't purchased since I have been here.

That because without gun registration its on the honor system. There is no way to know if i actually sold a gun legally.

That is why so many police officers spoke against it. They have no way to enforce it.

[Nolan]

There currently is no registration requirements for your weapons. Thus the only way to enforce this is by the honor system...... I'm sure some sort of registration is coming down the line soon. That's the only way to figure out who has the really scary guns and aren't criminals yet.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Ok, I'll bite, Spooph. Want to help solve this?
1. Mandatory gun safety training for ALL citizens. Those that don't like that can move to France with all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys.
2. Make it easier to investigate and confine people with psychotic tendencies (I can hear the liberals screaming about civil rights abuses already - ironically the same ones pushing take away our 2nd Amendment rights).
3. Harden ALL schools. Big, tough fences, minimal entrances and exits. The school building itself will have all entrances/exits with 2 sets of bullet-proof doors in a bullet-proof room. The entrances will be monitored by camera so that the operator (who is in a secure bullet-proof room) can remotely lock the bad guy in between doors.
4. Armed guards at ALL schools, more based on school population size.
5. Hidden cameras all over the school, monitored by the operator, and microphones that would automatically alert the operator and police in the event of the discharge of a weapon (even sub-sonic rounds have a distinct sonic signature).
6. Bullet-proof doors on all classrooms, able to be remotely locked by the operator.
7. Allow the teachers to be armed after passing a safety and proficiency test.
8. Have the police and first responders have access to all the video feed and remote door controls.
9. Gun ports into every room that can only be operated by authorities.

Notice I did all this without promoting any more absurd 2nd Amendment violations promoted by the liberals?

[#1Townie]

I get why you are anti-registration. Not sure I agree, but I get it.

RE your latest hypothetical. Perhaps no one is replying because every time you present a scenario, people will poke holes in it, you will say they are wrong even if evidence shows otherwise or you will just modify the scenario. It is a never ending cycle of "keep proving me wrong".

All govt legislation will have people left behind. That is the nature of public policy that governs many. There will always be the edge cases that were not accounted for or are so rare the in the overall betterment of society, it is a price worth paying.

Re waiting periods (expanded to include required training). Any evidence that the waiting period in California has caused ex-GFs of abusers to be killed whereas all the ex-GFs in Alabama have successfully shot the abuser post firearms purchase? I am simply asking if your hypothetical can be justified as a reason to NOT implement.

Re the training. Lets also admit, just because someone has training doesn't mean they will not commit firearms violence. The us spends on average $12.8 million daily on gun violence. Thats 4.6 billion a year for the short term and long term costs associated with gun violence. Now clearly most of it is not the legal / non-criminal. But it is a problem the we collectively have to be able to improve.

It didn't take much to find a story for you but here you go.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/10...or-gun-permit/

If you want stories of abused women shooting violent men the list is long. Very very very very long.

Not sure where you got your numbers on gun violence but according to this its much lower than you claim.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/02/news...nce-insurance/
Sure it costs us a lot of money but so does everything else. The money aspect could be argued that should fall under the war on drugs considering the majority of our violence is drug related. So lets just move on from that or start a new thread on that.

And of course you can't say all the ex girlfriends because that would be statistically impossible.

Im not really making up impossible situations. Considering there is a rape in this country every two minutes. Something like 80% of women have been in an abusive relationship.

Would one be able to argue that in crime ridden neighborhoods its easier for a criminal to get a gun than an honest person? Most of these cities have waiting times and permits that are needed for an honest person. A criminal just steals it or buys it off the street.

Criminals don't follow laws. Its about that simple.

I understand that legislation will leave people behind but when you are talking about a person's right to defend their life no one should be left behind.

Like I said I would love to see firearm education in our schools. I have said this many times.

I haven't even come to the Ferguson riots last year. Cops actually started to tell people to go get a gun because they wouldn't be able to respond to calls.

In cases of civil unrest like that what do you think response times for home invasions would be? Maybe 30 minutes if you're lucky?

I understand the ideas behind more fun control and if we were dealing with reasonable people they wouldn't be asking for much. The problem is we aren't dealing with reasonable people. We aren't dealing with common sense. We are dealing with pure evil.

Anyone willing to kill for simple things are pure evil and will arm themselves with anything they can get their hands on. Don't believe me? Look at the knife attacks in china and Japan. A recent one in china killed 30 people and wounded like 120 more.

Really don't agree with me? What about 911? That was 3000 people murdered without a shot fired. How about the Boston bombing? Unabomber? Hell the worst school disaster in this country was with tnt.

[#1Townie]

No, this lumping occurred BEFORE I made the above post you quoted. It is an attitude of "you are either fully with us or against us". And i think this is the first time I have really engaged in a firearms discussion here so there is no "you said in the past....". It is the knee jerk reaction of black or white, but no grey.

I know someone is lumping people into groups but I don't think I have. Cm is just an angry old man. Lol.

Still love you monkey. :-D

[#1Townie]

ugh, this is getting frustrating... I post the information so that the argument can progress. If the responders in this thread don't go over that information (by watching all 4 videos and reading the article), like I follow the articles which are being posted by others, and thus, understanding what they are saying, the argument won't progress...

I don't expect the citizens to give up any more rights. I believe I've already stated the logical argument on the first page, and through that logical argument it shows that further regulation won't solve anything along with supporting your suggestion of how to keep our kids safe, right now. My attempt here is to show the various factors which enter into this issue, and all of the other things that need to be addressed to solve the problem. I believe I've listed those out as well, and provided a road map to connect the dots in between them. I have gotten no questions or critique as to the information I have provided...

this leads me to believe that those with the opinions are here simply to yell and scream, not to try and help solve the problem. I'm not here to yell and scream, I'm here to solve the problem.

I take 100% responsibility for my existence, in my own personal protection as I do my safety on the bike on the road, as I do in providing for me and mine. To be able to take 100% responsibility, I need to understand everything which is involved with those goals and my impact on the world, etc. I also know that I don't know everything, but I do know that intelligent discussion is a vehicle with which to continue my understand.

Simple throwing the same arguments at the same people is, by definition, insanity. If it's not working, at least display your own maturity and intelligence by bringing something new to the argument.

Only when we put our ego to the side and look at the facts, and argue them against one another, instead of arguing ourselves against one another will we get anywhere. Dumb people confuse arguing concept against individual values, and although concept is grounded is individual values (as one can become the other), it doesn't predispose us being on opposite sides.

Drama is bad decisions perpetuated by ignorance. Don't be drama for it betrays your ignorance and bad decisions. Be a solution, by making good decisions and being educated.

I think you need to calm down there GUY. I haven't responded to your posts because I agree with most of them.

I'm not really into having a conversation with someone that I am agreeing with. Kind of pointless in a simple debate. No you're right. No you sir are clearly making a better point than I. Yeah but you brought an amazing link to the discussion. Yes sir I did but you gave me the idea for it.

While we have had a few people make some childish comments this is just a simple debate. I am truly interested in why people think the things they do.

Zantos made the amazing argument that we don't care about dead kids and cm is claiming you can't talk with a liberal. Lol. I haven't engaged with either really because its pointless.

I am enjoying my conversation with cpt because we are having a nice back or forth. I don't think anyone is yelling at anyone else. I know I used caps on a statement but it wasn't about yelling. It was just to enlarge the point.

Maybe I'm reading too deep into your post but yeah I've read and listen to your posts and links. For the most part I agree and the things I don't is a topic all on its own.

So for the sake of somewhat keeping things within the same conversation I haven't replied to you. Sorry.

[Spooph]

The biggest problem with all of this is us vs them, and not enough WE. Each side adopting an all or nothing position. As long as that attitude exists we'll never get out of this mess.

THIS!

Ok, I'll bite, Spooph. Want to help solve this?
1. Mandatory gun safety training for ALL citizens. Those that don't like that can move to France with all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys.
Totally agree! Along with emotional/psychological education. Increasing knowledge without the maturity and responsibility to be able to wield that knowledge is dangerous.
2. Make it easier to investigate and confine people with psychotic tendencies (I can hear the liberals screaming about civil rights abuses already - ironically the same ones pushing take away our 2nd Amendment rights).
Not sure how this to be implemented, although I do not disagree with it. Maybe an option in school under my suggestion for point 1?
3. Harden ALL schools. Big, tough fences, minimal entrances and exits. The school building itself will have all entrances/exits with 2 sets of bullet-proof doors in a bullet-proof room. The entrances will be monitored by camera so that the operator (who is in a secure bullet-proof room) can remotely lock the bad guy in between doors.
I agree with the sentiments, however, going too far has it' own repercussions. Much like with CCW, not knowing in who carries, but simply stating X # of staff/parents/vets/police are armed might be deterrent enough?
4. Armed guards at ALL schools, more based on school population size.
As Townie has suggested multiple times, employ vets for this. They don't need to dress up all agro-like, just some body armor and a side-arm, maybe even CCW, again, see point 3.
5. Hidden cameras all over the school, monitored by the operator, and microphones that would automatically alert the operator and police in the event of the discharge of a weapon (even sub-sonic rounds have a distinct sonic signature).
Disagree completely as this would implicitly vilify all occupants of the buildings, not to mention the possibility of abuse, etc. Nor would it help prevent a mass shooting, but simply alert the authorities faster. Same issue as "you have seconds when the police are minutes away."
6. Bullet-proof doors on all classrooms, able to be remotely locked by the operator.
If the funding can be found, it certainly won't hurt!
7. Allow the teachers to be armed after passing a safety and proficiency test.
This, absolutely this. Not required mind you, but allowing them to chose... Along with this, and what others have said, proper training for police and other first responders on how to deal with these situations, physically and emotionally. Included in this would be nice to see parents, staff (Janitors, etc).
8. Have the police and first responders have access to all the video feed and remote door controls.
Don't see a problem with this, but again, not sure what good it would to prevent shootings.
9. Gun ports into every room that can only be operated by authorities.
Going a little renaissance are we? :P
Notice I did all this without promoting any more absurd 2nd Amendment violations promoted by the liberals?

Well, not the 2nd Amendment strictly speaking... :P Yes, this is a great start! I think in reality all we need is point 1 and 2.

I think you need to calm down there GUY. I haven't responded to your posts because I agree with most of them.

No need to apologize. It is after all a healthy discussion. Thanks for including me in the discussion. And no need to ass kiss just cause I'm a mod either. :P

[#1Townie]

THIS!




Well, not the 2nd Amendment strictly speaking... :P Yes, this is a great start! I think in reality all we need is point 1 and 2.



No need to apologize. It is after all a healthy discussion. Thanks for including me in the discussion. And no need to ass kiss just cause I'm a mod either. :P

You're a mod? Well I didn't know that. They like made 20 people mods. I'm sticking to my promise from a few months ago.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Totally disagree on #5

Hidden cameras are legal, you have no expectation of privacy in public places. The "villify" and privacy issue has already has run it's course in the courts and been upheld. It could very well prevent a shooting if the security guy sees something suspicious, like that kid in CT who was FAR too old to be there. And, if not, then being able to prevent the scumbag from going freely from room to room because you can track him and remotely lock doors would go a long way to minimizing and mitigating the threat. Also, one of the main problems with school shootings, is that the officers have zero idea where he actually IS. Many lives could have been saved in Columbine and other shootings because the cops sat outside wondering where the scum were. Also, if the scum decided to change clothing and try and blend in with the students, the security guy could give a great description of the guy, as well as location, AND what it appears he was armed with. Also, just as importantly, where the dead and injured were. This would all be extremely valuable and timely info for the cops and first responders as time is of the essence when someone's bleeding out.

As far as bulletproof doors, make 'em out of 2" thick oak or plywood, with a small bulletproof window, shouldn't be tremendously expensive. That'll stop most rounds.

The thing is, it's a liberal fantasy that you could prevent all shootings. That will never happen. All you can do is be vigilant and prepared to stop the ones you can from happening, and minimize the damage WHEN they occur.

On another note, I think this could help with bullying as well, seeing it, and with bullies knowing they're being watched, just not from where, and if the kid tells the bully he didn't "snitch", there's a great chance he didn't.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

You're a mod? Well I didn't know that. They like made 20 people mods. I'm sticking to my promise from a few months ago.

...ya gotta keep 'em moderated.....

[Grim2.0]

I use guns to hunt animals and provide food for my family....that's my argument.




Grim out, see you in another 8 months!

[Clovis]

Oh, he'll be back... watching, lurking in the shadows..

So have totally written off street bikes at this point?

[Spooph]

Totally disagree on #5

Hidden cameras are legal, you have no expectation of privacy in public places. The "villify" and privacy issue has already has run it's course in the courts and been upheld. It could very well prevent a shooting if the security guy sees something suspicious, like that kid in CT who was FAR too old to be there. And, if not, then being able to prevent the scumbag from going freely from room to room because you can track him and remotely lock doors would go a long way to minimizing and mitigating the threat. Also, one of the main problems with school shootings, is that the officers have zero idea where he actually IS. Many lives could have been saved in Columbine and other shootings because the cops sat outside wondering where the scum were. Also, if the scum decided to change clothing and try and blend in with the students, the security guy could give a great description of the guy, as well as location, AND what it appears he was armed with. Also, just as importantly, where the dead and injured were. This would all be extremely valuable and timely info for the cops and first responders as time is of the essence when someone's bleeding out.

As far as bulletproof doors, make 'em out of 2" thick oak or plywood, with a small bulletproof window, shouldn't be tremendously expensive. That'll stop most rounds.

The thing is, it's a liberal fantasy that you could prevent all shootings. That will never happen. All you can do is be vigilant and prepared to stop the ones you can from happening, and minimize the damage WHEN they occur.

On another note, I think this could help with bullying as well, seeing it, and with bullies knowing they're being watched, just not from where, and if the kid tells the bully he didn't "snitch", there's a great chance he didn't.

I agree that it would probably work. It just makes me supremely uncomfortable. Very 1984...

[Zanatos]

I think you need to calm down there GUY...

Zantos made the amazing argument that we don't care about dead kids ...

This is false. I never said you don't care about dead kids. I just noted that you are unwilling to accept any new restrictions on gun ownership because easy access to weapons is higher on your priority list. This is clearly evidenced by your insistence that gun owners have the right, under the Second Amendment, to be completely ignorant of safety precautions, proper/legal application of deadly force, and personal accountability for letting their lethal weapons fall into the hands of kids, mentally ill family members, and thieves.

Every debate with you is like trying to convince a middle schooler that he doesn't know everything. You are completely closed-minded, and you always devolve into insults or name-calling/labeling (ie "Liberal").

If you need proof of any of these things, take a look at your posting history. There is no sense in posting a point-by-point argument here because all statements above are 100% documented, indisputable facts.

Now, you be sure to have yourself a lovely day.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I agree that it would probably work. It just makes me supremely uncomfortable. Very 1984...

Sadly, the lowest-common-denominator have brought this upon themselves.....and us.

Me, I look at the positives mentioned helping stop the bad guy, and protect the students from physical harm as overruling any privacy concerns. And, as has been stated, legally, in a public place, you have no expectation of privacy. How is a camera in the wall any different than a hand-held i-phone? Or someone simply watching?

[#1Townie]

This is false. I never said you don't care about dead kids. I just noted that you are unwilling to accept any new restrictions on gun ownership because easy access to weapons is higher on your priority list. This is clearly evidenced by your insistence that gun owners have the right, under the Second Amendment, to be completely ignorant of safety precautions, proper/legal application of deadly force, and personal accountability for letting their lethal weapons fall into the hands of kids, mentally ill family members, and thieves.

Every debate with you is like trying to convince a middle schooler that he doesn't know everything. You are completely closed-minded, and you always devolve into insults or name-calling/labeling (ie "Liberal").

If you need proof of any of these things, take a look at your posting history. There is no sense in posting a point-by-point argument here because all statements above are 100% documented, indisputable facts.

Now, you be sure to have yourself a lovely day.

impressive set of you points you bring up good sir.

so tell me how more restrictions would have prevented anything. the newtown shooting the man killed his own mother to gain access to weapons. Boston bombing there wasn't even a gun involved.

yet in Paris where there is extremely strict gun control you have had mass shootings. cops being shot down dead in the streets whole people video tape it.

you claim gun control works but everything says there is no proof one way or another because comparing crime stats between countries is extremely difficult.

not to mention even our own country doesn't take stats on how many times a firearm is used for self-defense. so honestly I'm not really sure where your hostility comes from.

is it because it's me saying these things? or is that you allow your emotions to control your thought process?

you seem to have an huge issue with the second amendment and this strikes me as odd as you once swore an oath to uphold it against all enemies foreign and domestic.

so good sir I would truly like to hear how newtown could have been prevented. or even Boston. or columbine. or the Aurora shooting. or Oregon. or ww2. or even the civil war.


but okay for the sake of a debate you claimed that other countries that have these strict gun controls don't have these problems. Mexico? Russia? Brazil? actually the number of countries with extremely tight gun control seem to have huge problems with violence and even shootings.

but again how can you really take a stat from England and compare it to us? and if you are going to use England why not also include Switzerland?

how about the idea that comparing our country with with the much smaller European countries has so many holes in it any logical person would not its not plausible.

england is about the size of a small state here in the US. do we get to pick what state is the safest and compare? or do we just lump everything together? and if that is the case do we get to include eastern European countries?

but honestly man no amount of legislation will prevent crazy. I have repeatedly said that beefing up security in our schools and these so called gun freezones.

so why is this not an option? why must controlling the honest person be our only means to deal with evil? why can we not actually focus on the evil at hand and try to understand it?

why am I the one acting childish when debating something like this? I have done nothing but try to be reasonable and give a fair debate. even when told I don't care about dead kids.

so sir I ask you. who is acting childesh? the one claiming no one cares about kids or the one who is claiming we need better security for our kids?


PS.. interesting who is name calling and turning this personal. let it go buddy. I've been chill for months.

[GMR]

Townie is right.

Really though, gun control and the planned parenthood/contraception needs to be just lumped together and put away for good. We waste so much time debating these divisive issues of which there is no clear solution, just tons of gray areas.
Let's talk about fucking entitlements. When you talk about raising the age of becoming eligible for social security, what about those of us who work in hazardous careers? I don't plan on being in the oilfield when I'm in my 60s and idk how many of you have more hazardous jobs, but I'm pretty sure I stand a higher chance of getting killed in 5 extra years of work than by some mass shooter.

[Spooph]

Sadly, the lowest-common-denominator have brought this upon themselves.....and us.

Me, I look at the positives mentioned helping stop the bad guy, and protect the students from physical harm as overruling any privacy concerns. And, as has been stated, legally, in a public place, you have no expectation of privacy. How is a camera in the wall any different than a hand-held i-phone? Or someone simply watching?

With surveillance I was more addressing the possible risk of abuse by some sick employee... Teacher sex scandles aren't uncommon either. You are right that in public there is no reasonable expectation of privacy.

[#1Townie]

here's a fun read.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...-owners-smile/