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Thread: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

  1. #25
    Senior Member Nolan's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    320 people in the club and nobody tackled this guy? Guns or not we can do more to not be sheep. Maybe?

  2. #26
    Senior Member Zanatos's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    From the news reports, it sounds like he was blasting everything in sight as fast as possible. He also might have positioned himself in a doorway or corner where it would be almost impossible to lay hands on him without dying.

  3. #27
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    so what's your idea with it all? how do you keep people safe?
    I don’t have a solution…bottom line is nobody is really safe anywhere nowadays because no matter what is done, if someone really wants to kill, they most likely will find a way. Take guns away, and they will use a bomb. Takes explosives away and someone will use poison….take all weapons away they will hijack an airplane……and so on. Bottom line is humans are just violent people and this is nothing that has changed….we just hear more about it with the media now, but for many centuries humans have done very barbaric things…..holocaust, atomic bombs, biologic weapons, etc.

    As for clubs/bars/concerts, I do think they metal detectors is one step to help this out because with those it becomes very difficult for a person to get in armed…for most part. Yet again, if someone really has a will, it will most likely still happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    I have to play Devil's advocate her for a second.

    There were 320 people in the club, so if 1% of them were armed, that would put four shooters (including the gunman) in a very crowded place. Unless one of the three "defenders" was able to take out the shooter before the police got there - it would be a royal cluster fuck. Then there is the liability issue. What if one of the CCW holders were able to shoot the gunman, but accidentally hit a couple innocent bystanders? On the one hand, he's a hero for saving a bunch of people, but on the other hand, he could be sued for everything he's got, and he could even be charged with negligent homicide. Or -- he might even get himself accidentally killed by responding police. How are the cops supposed to know he's a good guy trying to take out the shooter? And it's not like the police are going to waltz in and say, "Everyone put down your guns." They are going to neutralize shooters. That's what they are focused on. (And once the shooting begins, how are the three good guys supposed to know whether there is more than one killer? Who is hostile and who is an ally? How do you tell in the heat of a firefight?)

    This is the kind of situation that makes a good case for mandatory training of all CCW permit holders. By carrying a weapon, they are not just defending themselves. They might also be forced into a situation where they serve as de facto police augmentees.
    I agree with you and have argued this same point when the Aurora theatre shooting occurred; nobody knows the “good guy” shooting is trying to help and could cause more panic. Like in the theatre shooting: what happened if someone in the back was a good guy and pulled out his weapon…..would victims know he was not part of the assault! Would it have caused many that ran out the back to veer to the front and get shot by the real killer resulting on more deaths. In a situation that is like this, it is easy to say what could have been done, but in the heat of things, it gets way harder.

    Yeah exactly and then what happens when the good guy misses and shoots someone else! Would that family really be like “oh no big deal, we know you were trying to help”….maybe, but most are going to sue the crap out of the “good guy” because all they know is that person shot and killed their loved one….then who knows if charges would be filled and the “good guy” gets locked up for years. Next, do we really blame the cops if they came in and shot the “good guy” thinking they were part of the killers
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  4. #28
    Senior Member Nolan's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    I haven't been watching the news much lately. Probably better that way anyway.

  5. #29
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    I have to play Devil's advocate her for a second.

    There were 320 people in the club, so if 1% of them were armed, that would put four shooters (including the gunman) in a very crowded place. Unless one of the three "defenders" was able to take out the shooter before the police got there - it would be a royal cluster fuck. Then there is the liability issue. What if one of the CCW holders were able to shoot the gunman, but accidentally hit a couple innocent bystanders? On the one hand, he's a hero for saving a bunch of people, but on the other hand, he could be sued for everything he's got, and he could even be charged with negligent homicide. Or -- he might even get himself accidentally killed by responding police. How are the cops supposed to know he's a good guy trying to take out the shooter? And it's not like the police are going to waltz in and say, "Everyone put down your guns." They are going to neutralize shooters. That's what they are focused on. (And once the shooting begins, how are the three good guys supposed to know whether there is more than one killer? Who is hostile and who is an ally? How do you tell in the heat of a firefight?)

    This is the kind of situation that makes a good case for mandatory training of all CCW permit holders. By carrying a weapon, they are not just defending themselves. They might also be forced into a situation where they serve as de facto police augmentees.

    The reason I bring all of this up is because a lot of people seem to imagine concealed carry as a simple matter. If something bad goes down, they're ready to use deadly force. It's their constitutional right. But the reality of a shooting situation is almost always complicated. It's not like the movies where Dirty Harry pulls out his .45 blows away the bad guy and cracks a cool remark.
    you know I used to make this very same argument. problem is.... it has never happened. but you know what has happened.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ng-in-chicago/

  6. #30
    Senior Member Zanatos's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    There ARE protocols established for CCW permit holders to keep from killing innocent people or getting themselves killed. Unfortunately, since training is not required, almost nobody knows what to do.

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ting-incident/

    As more and more people decide to exercise their Second Amendment rights, the likelihood of multiple concealed carriers being at an incident increases.

    Also, many concealed carriers are not responsible, upstanding, and intelligent citizens. Since 2007, there have been at least 579 fatal, non-self defense incidents involving concealed carry permit holders nationwide, a number that likely represents a fraction of the actual total. (Violence Policy Center)
    Last edited by Zanatos; Mon Jun 13th, 2016 at 02:03 PM.


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  7. #31
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesth...9Ml#.vxeExYDaJ


    here is some more. and yes most are off duty police but hey it's still a citizen with a gun.

  8. #32
    Gold Member bulldog's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    There ARE protocols established for CCW permit holders to keep from killing innocent people or getting themselves killed. Unfortunately, since training is not required, almost nobody knows what to do.

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ting-incident/

    As more and more people decide to exercise their Second Amendment rights, the likelihood of multiple concealed carriers being at an incident increases.

    Also, many concealed carriers are not responsible, upstanding, and intelligent citizens. Since 2007, there have been at least 579 fatal, non-self defense incidents involving concealed carry permit holders nationwide, a number that likely represents a fraction of the actual total. (Violence Policy Center)
    Yeah, what is it now? Like a once day class? Heck it is more a joke now as I see Groupon offers these up for near nothing as if it is like learning to play the guitar.






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    Last edited by bulldog; Mon Jun 13th, 2016 at 02:07 PM.
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  9. #33
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    you guys can't make up what ifs. truth is these so called what if scenarios have never happened. but what has happened is that honest people with a firearm has stopped these shootings before they shooter got very far. in schools. in theaters. even in public squares. non of them turned into the wild west shootouts you see in movies. not a bunch of people got shot by the armed citizens.

    it simply hasn't happened. it sounds great in your head. but truth is it hasn't happened. this tells me that the people who do carry and do try to stop these shooters are using their heads and no just blindly running down halls and into crowds blasting away like some Bruce Willis wannabe.

  10. #34
    Gold Member bulldog's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    you guys can't make up what ifs. truth is these so called what if scenarios have never happened. but what has happened is that honest people with a firearm has stopped these shootings before they shooter got very far. in schools. in theaters. even in public squares. non of them turned into the wild west shootouts you see in movies. not a bunch of people got shot by the armed citizens.

    it simply hasn't happened. it sounds great in your head. but truth is it hasn't happened. this tells me that the people who do carry and do try to stop these shooters are using their heads and no just blindly running down halls and into crowds blasting away like some Bruce Willis wannabe.
    I think we are both saying a CCW is a bigger responsibility than most people take it for and more training should be done so we can have experienced holders do the right thing in these situations.

    Like Townie….I think how you and BK have told me how hard it is to have and maintain a CDL license. I assume because they understand how dangerous and giant vehicle could be in the wrong hands. Yet compare it to how easy it is to get and keep a CCW seems ridiculous.
    Last edited by bulldog; Mon Jun 13th, 2016 at 02:23 PM.
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  11. #35
    Senior Member Zanatos's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Update: Pulse had armed security, and there was an off-duty police officer who was carrying concealed and exchanged gunfire with the shooter before he barricaded himself in the bathroom with hostages.

    Source (please ignore the political stuff): http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/06/1...y-gun-stopped/


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  12. #36
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
    I think we are both saying a CCW is a bigger responsibility than most people take it for and more training should be done so we can have experienced holders do the right thing in these situations.

    Like Townie….I think how you and BK have told me how hard it is to have and maintain a CDL license. I assume because they understand how dangerous and giant vehicle could be in the wrong hands. Yet compare it to how easy it is to get and keep a CCW seems ridiculous.
    ummm... your lack of knowledge on both these subjects is showing. its not that easy to get a ccw. and you have to prove you can use firearms. you don't just buy one and walk around the streets. open carry is like that but not ccw.

    cdl is basically the same thing. but you can't really compare the two. you need no background checks for a cdl. you only need to be able to pass the tests. do a google search on cdl farms. ccw instructors take their training very seriously. they know that if they pass someone they shouldn't they will end up on the news.

    just look at the guy who owned the gun shop in the Florida shooting. he did everything right but is now known as the guy who sold the guns that killed 49 people.

    you never hear about where a driver for his license from. most people who take the time to get their ccw are the higher end of gun owners. who take it very seriously. who do shoot. even do shooting scenarios. and have to be more accurate than police officers. because unlike the police a ccw holder can't have collateral damage. they will be charged for shooting innocent people. unlike cops.

    so really guys I couldn't be less concerned about ccw holders considering they are already held to a higher standard than our law enforcement.

  13. #37
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    Update: Pulse had armed security, and there was an off-duty police officer who was carrying concealed and exchanged gunfire with the shooter before he barricaded himself in the bathroom with hostages.

    Source (please ignore the political stuff): http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/06/1...y-gun-stopped/

    and did that person shoot tons of innocent people? thats your argument right?
    Last edited by #1Townie; Mon Jun 13th, 2016 at 04:54 PM.

  14. #38
    Senior Member Zanatos's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Townie, I think you need a reading comprehension class.

    My point is that the "good guys with guns" didn't prevent the biggest mass shooting in American history.

  15. #39
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    Townie, I think you need a reading comprehension class.

    My point is that the "good guys with guns" didn't prevent the biggest mass shooting in American history.
    This time.... Who knows how many people those guys saved by acting.
    Last edited by j0ker; Mon Jun 13th, 2016 at 04:29 PM.

  16. #40
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    What if one of the CCW holders were able to shoot the gunman, but accidentally hit a couple innocent bystanders?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    Townie, I think you need a reading comprehension class.

    e.
    looks like my reading comprehension is just fine. your words. your talking points.
    Last edited by #1Townie; Mon Jun 13th, 2016 at 04:53 PM.

  17. #41
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by j0ker View Post
    This time.... Who knows how many people those guys saved by acting.
    they don't want to read the links I already posted about mass shootings being stopped by good guys with guns.

  18. #42
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
    I think we are both saying a CCW is a bigger responsibility than most people take it for and more training should be done so we can have experienced holders do the right thing in these situations.

    Like Townie….I think how you and BK have told me how hard it is to have and maintain a CDL license. I assume because they understand how dangerous and giant vehicle could be in the wrong hands. Yet compare it to how easy it is to get and keep a CCW seems ridiculous.
    FWIW, I think it should be noted that while you can compare CDL vs. CCW. The main difference is, one is a privilege and the other is a constitutional right. More specific in the broad terms of Driving vs. Right to keep and bear arms. One can be limited for a number of reasons, the other should not be tampered with according to the Bill of Rights.

    I agree with Townie, most CCW's or CHP's tend to train more than the average shooter and average cop. I've said it before, but I have a relative that is former law enforcement of 28 years. He's told me on numerous occasions that when he was on the force, they only had to qualify twice a year. He told me most cops he knew didn't even shoot or practice other that during their qualifying. Now granted, some law enforcement shoot more than others. I'm sure now in the present Law Enforcement train more than they did in the past. Keep in mind my relative joined the force right out of Vietnam, so different times and different measures.

    I will say this, I've yet to run across any law enforcement that shoot as much as I do. When I first obtained my CCW, I was shooting as much as 20,000rds a year, across all platforms of firearms. Now with the the prices of ammo higher than they used to be, and reloading components sometimes in short supply, I've dialed back the amount I shoot. I still get in around 5000 to 10000rds of practice shooting per year. Also FWIW, my instructor was also a competition shooter. He said it was not uncommon for him to close in on 100,000rds a year of shooting. Most competitions he'd do would eat up close to 1000rds just for one competition.

    Practice does make perfect and shooting is a perishable talent. I can tell when I've been on the long guns too long and my pistol accuracy will suffer a bit. Doesn't take me but a hundred rounds to get back to the precision I normally shoot with. Vice versa, I can tell when I've been putting in a lot of pistol practice, because my long guns accuracy will be off. I usually shoot at least once, but in the warmer months twice a month.

    Now with all that said Bulldog, I do feel more than confident in my abilities to shoot. I know that should any situation arise, I know I can handle it. The problem is, everyone paints CCW's as Rambo's or Die Hard wannabe's. That's not the case for most CCW's and I can surely tell you that's not the case with ME.

    It's cold and callous but I can tell you it would take an extraordinary situation for me to step in and use my firearm. Meaning: it would mean that my "OWN" life is in danger and not someone else. Because I'll flat out tell you, I will not step in to save someone's life if there is a 1% chance that I could face legal repercussions in doing so. Unfortunately, their life isn't worth my Freedom. Way I look at it, is people die or get killed every day. It's not my problem or business to stop it or step it. If myself, my family or my friends are in imminent danger of serious bodily damage and/or death, then absolutely I'll step in and do my duty. I won't step in for a stranger, they can arm themselves the same as I am. It's not my job to save someone else.

    So don't paint us all as hero's that ride into danger while everyone is fleeing it. The only time I'll step up to confront the wolf is when my life is in jeopardy. If there is an opportunity for me to leave a deadly situation without having to engage an active shooter, you can bet I'll use it.

    I obtained my CCW to protect #1 and no one else......
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  19. #43
    Senior Member Zanatos's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    I looked at the story you posted about the case where a good guy was able to prevent a mass shooting - but what does that have to do with anything? It's a very rare occurrence, not a common one.

    Should I post some of the stories from the 579 deaths caused by concealed carriers who were not using their firearms in self-defense?

    It's time for gun enthusiasts to open their minds a tiny crack and begin to consider the idea that it's a damned good idea for firearms owners to be trained how to properly use their weapons in a responsible manner, and to learn enough about police procedures and tactics that they don't end up getting themselves killed, killing innocent bystanders, other "good guys with guns," or responding cops/security personnel.

    The argument of, "You got a problem? Get a gun" has become old and tired, and a majority of Americans are sick of mass shootings and support SOME kind of gun reforms aimed at reducing these incidents.

    I'm sick of the old, trite NRA talking points like, "A good guy with a gun is the only defense against a bad guy with a gun." It's basically true - but only after the bad guy gets a gun. Preventing that is the part I'm pretty sure that America can improve upon.

    Americans have simply accepted an average of 32,000 gun deaths a year for far too long. It's time for a dialogue, and time for the NRA to stop shutting down the conversation.

  20. #44
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    I looked at the story you posted about the case where a good guy was able to prevent a mass shooting - but what does that have to do with anything? It's a very rare occurrence, not a common one.

    Should I post some of the stories from the 579 deaths caused by concealed carriers who were not using their firearms in self-defense?

    It's time for gun enthusiasts to open their minds a tiny crack and begin to consider the idea that it's a damned good idea for firearms owners to be trained how to properly use their weapons in a responsible manner, and to learn enough about police procedures and tactics that they don't end up getting themselves killed, killing innocent bystanders, other "good guys with guns," or responding cops/security personnel.

    The argument of, "You got a problem? Get a gun" has become old and tired, and a majority of Americans are sick of mass shootings and support SOME kind of gun reforms aimed at reducing these incidents.

    I'm sick of the old, trite NRA talking points like, "A good guy with a gun is the only defense against a bad guy with a gun." It's basically true - but only after the bad guy gets a gun. Preventing that is the part I'm pretty sure that America can improve upon.

    Americans have simply accepted an average of 32,000 gun deaths a year for far too long. It's time for a dialogue, and time for the NRA to stop shutting down the conversation.
    oh I don't think you are going to win this argument. while yes you could argue this very low number of people killed. in the state of Colorado as of 2012 there was 30,000 concealed permit holders. thays some pretty good odds.

    guessing you got your info from here.

    http://addictinginfo.org/2015/10/26/...-self-defense/

    but that's okay. let's just play by the numbers. now I'm curious where these numbers come from. as stats like this are so hard to come by. I could go to some pro gun sites that give their numbers but I'm also sceptical to those numbers.

    we don't keep very good track record when it comes to firearms data. like we will never see real stats on how many people are shot by police by mistake. because that number is just not counted.

    another number that is not counted is how many times a firearm is drawn but not used. that would be another interesting stat to bring to the table if we could. but we can't.

    but yes on average there is 32,000 gun deaths. but wwe don't get a breakdown of those numbers. if you would like to throw numbers at me I will dance to that tune.

    according to the Washington post the seemed to have figured out that there is roughly 357,000,000 guns in this country. let those numbers sink in just a bit. 32k in deaths. 357m guns.

    but let's ignore that for a moment. you made a claim about a person stopping a mass shooter as rare. isn't a mass shooting rare to begin with? I mean they make up a small amount of shootings that we face. so the fact that there is any intervention really starts to raise the percentage that a "good guy with a gun" stops these things. making it not as rare as you would believe.

    I think your problem is you hear the media always talking about shootings. for this I would like you to go back to my first couple of posts. don't let the media play with your emotions.

    fact is with the amount guns we have in this country our shootings is still very low. the amount of concealed permit holders shooting innocent people is also very very low. statistically speaking.

    but hey man even the pros make mistakes.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25...e-gunfire.html

    https://photographyisnotacrime.com/2...ted-car-thief/

    http://nypost.com/2016/01/01/chicago...led-bystander/

    just a couple. thats a large Google search. my point with that is mistakes happen. and yes there will be a certain number of people who will screw up. but if you take into account the number of people walking around with ccwp and compare them to your numbers over the course of almost ten years it would appear that the current training is more than adequate. unless you live in a fairytale and think that number should be zero.


    when thinking about such an important thing like limiting the rights to someone to defend themselves we truly need to remove emotion from the thought process and address the situation as a whole.

    we have been having to deal with these mass shootings for a long time and yet we are still talking about the tools and not the actual problem. mental health. but that's just something we are not willing to do.


    while you may be sick of the nra talking points I'm sick of the counter to that. using numbers out of context. playing with people's emotions. we as a society allowing our media to control our thought process by playing with our emotions. but that list could go on for a long time. just like the list of things that has a greater chance of killing you than a gun.

    you say it's time for gun owners to open our minds. I m sitting here looking at things as whole. I just shot yesterday. pistol and rifle. bolt and semiautomatic. I fire my firearms several times a month.

    so who has the closed mind? is it really the gun nuts?

  21. #45
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatos View Post
    I looked at the story you posted about the case where a good guy was able to prevent a mass shooting - but what does that have to do with anything? It's a very rare occurrence, not a common one.

    Should I post some of the stories from the 579 deaths caused by concealed carriers who were not using their firearms in self-defense?

    It's time for gun enthusiasts to open their minds a tiny crack and begin to consider the idea that it's a damned good idea for firearms owners to be trained how to properly use their weapons in a responsible manner, and to learn enough about police procedures and tactics that they don't end up getting themselves killed, killing innocent bystanders, other "good guys with guns," or responding cops/security personnel.

    The argument of, "You got a problem? Get a gun" has become old and tired, and a majority of Americans are sick of mass shootings and support SOME kind of gun reforms aimed at reducing these incidents.

    I'm sick of the old, trite NRA talking points like, "A good guy with a gun is the only defense against a bad guy with a gun." It's basically true - but only after the bad guy gets a gun. Preventing that is the part I'm pretty sure that America can improve upon.

    Americans have simply accepted an average of 32,000 gun deaths a year for far too long. It's time for a dialogue, and time for the NRA to stop shutting down the conversation.
    579 deaths caused by concealed carry holders, is a small if not minuscule percentage of people with conceal carry. Just for statistics Colorado had roughly 140,000 CCW holders in 2012. That's just one state.

    I suggest you go here for statistics country wide: http://legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm

    So as you can see from the statistics from all the states. 579 incidents does not make a pattern. It makes for dumbass people who shouldn't own a firearm let alone have their permit. People can change, I'm sure when the obtained their CCW's they were good people. Some people change and they do bad things. Can't use that statistic to force an issue that CCW's wouldn't help a situation if they were there.

    So 579 people screwed up. The millions of CCW holders across the nation have not. You're painting CCW holders in the same light that anti-gun people paint law abiding gun owners in. Just because someone uses a gun for evil, doesn't mean the millions upon millions of gun owners will do the same. Just because someone uses an AR15 to slaughter innocent people, doesn't give way to the idea that we should restrict the use or purchase of this weapon by the millions of law abiding citizens.

    I've yet to come home and stumbled upon my guns embroiled in a no holds barred Mortal Kombat in my gun safe. It just doesn't happen. You may say it's old and tired but the statement rings true. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." People will find a way to murder regardless of the tool. Cain killed Abel with his bare hands. Where there is a will, there is a way.

    Saying that the NRA and pro-gun owners aren't in favor of people getting trained doesn't make sense. I don't know anyone of my pro-gun family or friends that aren't in favor of people getting more and more training with firearms.

    You want to help curb these kinds of incidents from happening?? Then we need "HARSH" penalties for committing these kinds of crimes. Penalty upon death, not jail time. People need to be prosecuted quickly, and not drag the trials out for years. Know how I would punish these people?? I'd give them due process and right to a speedy trial and then HANG!! them in public in front of the courthouse where they were tried. Believe me, if we had public gallows where murders, rapist, pedophiles were hanged in front of their peers. I'd be willing to bet, we'd see a massive downturn in crime. If the punishment fit the crime, we'd see people not committing these kinds of crimes.

    It's not about legislating guns away from people. It's about punishing them severely when they break the law!!

    I don't break the law, so I don't want to be denied owning the weapons that I choose to own. It's not my fault, nor the fault of millions of responsible gun owners for those who abuse the weapons they obtain.

    Banning guns.... check that, sensible gun control means attacking the problem on the wrong end. It's the equivalent to pissing on a forest fire. It doesn't work and it doesn't stop EVIL people from obtaining weapons. How you going to crack down on the entire BLACK MARKET??? We have US Black Markets, and Foreign Black Markets. Shut down one and 5 more will spring up in it's place.

    Taking away the tool does nothing. Punishment, severe punishment is what will stop this kind of behavior....
    Last edited by The Black Knight; Mon Jun 13th, 2016 at 10:20 PM.
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  22. #46
    Senior Member Wrider's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Personally I love when people bring up the 32K gun deaths per year as a trope for how bad this imagined gun problem is.

    32K is approximately .01% of the population. As in 1 out of 10,000 people. Now take into account that 60% of those are self-selective. That comes out to 12,800 as involuntarily killed via firearms. Another 1200 of those are by police. We're at 11,600.

    Now we have the FBI's definition of justifiable homicide. There's another 742 gone from those numbers, so for ease of math we'll say 700, and our numbers go to 10,900.

    That comes out to a chance of 0.003% of being killed by a firearm that is not self inflicted. That's 1 in 29,358 for those keeping track at home.

    Now we take into account cities with serious gang problems and gun control solutions. I'll just use Chicago, LA, Washington, DC, and we'll throw in NYC for good measure. All of those are the most restrictive cities in the country when it comes to firearms.

    Chicago: 445
    LA: 675
    DC: 119
    NYC: 135

    Just in those 4 cities we have a total of 1,375 people. And considering that owning/carrying a firearm is essentially illegal in those 4 cities, we can assume all were done via illegal firearms owned and used by people who should not have them in the first place.

    So just there we have 12.6% of the problem. Just in those 4 cities. Those cities take up 4.9% of the population. Over 10% of the problem, under 5% of the population.

    And that 0.003% even includes those 4 cities! Imagine what the numbers would be if we took out those 4 cities, or if we got really restrictive and took out cities like Baltimore, Newark, New Orleans, Detroit, etc?

    So right now we're at a 1 in 30K chance of being killed involuntarily by a firearm.

    Now how about we take a look at how often firearms are used for self defense? According to the most liberal, anti-gun survey I could find, it's estimated that people use firearms 50K times per year for self defense. Other estimates go up to 2.5 million times.

    So 50K out of 320,000,000 brings us to .01% of the population using a firearm for self defense. Or 1 in 6400. Which means that a firearm is, even according to uber liberals, used for self defense 4.7 times for every time it is used to kill someone. Even when that someone is a thug who is killed by another thug.

    Self defense 4.7 times, or killed 1 time? Personally I'll take self defense. YMMV.
    Last edited by Wrider; Tue Jun 14th, 2016 at 01:37 AM.
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  23. #47
    Gold Member
    Join Date
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrider View Post
    Personally I love when people bring up the 32K gun deaths per year as a trope for how bad this imagined gun problem is.

    32K is approximately .01% of the population. As in 1 out of 10,000 people. Now take into account that 60% of those are self-selective. That comes out to 12,800 as involuntarily killed via firearms. Another 1200 of those are by police. We're at 11,600.

    Now we have the FBI's definition of justifiable homicide. There's another 742 gone from those numbers, so for ease of math we'll say 700, and our numbers go to 10,900.

    That comes out to a chance of 0.003% of being killed by a firearm that is not self inflicted. That's 1 in 29,358 for those keeping track at home.

    Now we take into account cities with serious gang problems and gun control solutions. I'll just use Chicago, LA, Washington, DC, and we'll throw in NYC for good measure. All of those are the most restrictive cities in the country when it comes to firearms.

    Chicago: 445
    LA: 675
    DC: 119
    NYC: 135

    Just in those 4 cities we have a total of 1,375 people. And considering that owning/carrying a firearm is essentially illegal in those 4 cities, we can assume all were done via illegal firearms owned and used by people who should not have them in the first place.

    So just there we have 12.6% of the problem. Just in those 4 cities. Those cities take up 4.9% of the population. Over 10% of the problem, under 5% of the population.

    And that 0.003% even includes those 4 cities! Imagine what the numbers would be if we took out those 4 cities, or if we got really restrictive and took out cities like Baltimore, Newark, New Orleans, Detroit, etc?

    So right now we're at a 1 in 30K chance of being killed involuntarily by a firearm.

    Now how about we take a look at how often firearms are used for self defense? According to the most liberal, anti-gun survey I could find, it's estimated that people use firearms 50K times per year for self defense. Other estimates go up to 2.5 million times.

    So 50K out of 320,000,000 brings us to .01% of the population using a firearm for self defense. Or 1 in 6400. Which means that a firearm is, even according to uber liberals, used for self defense 4.7 times for every time it is used to kill someone. Even when that someone is a thug who is killed by another thug.

    Self defense 4.7 times, or killed 1 time? Personally I'll take self defense. YMMV.
    nice post.

  24. #48
    Gold Member salsashark's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Nightclub Shooting

    All I know is that I'm picking up some extra 30-round magazines before I move out of SC...
    Do not put off living the life you dream of. Next year may never come. If we are always waiting for something to change...
    Retirement, the kids to leave home, the weather or the economy, that's not living. That's waiting!
    Waiting will only leaves us with unrealized dreams and empty wishes.

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