Track Day Help. Technique Help.

[64BonnieLass]

So I'm just gonna start because "I can Haz Fail!!" So I'm wondering myself how to discuss and receive varying opinions on different things. I have tons of questions that maybe you guys can help with. People are sooo busy on the track days it's hard to get help without just plain ol doin' it seat time.

Others were posting in another thread and there was some good advice put out in my beginner mind at least.

"Oldkneedragger"
Most likely the tucking was the result of too much (sudden) front brake at too much of a lean angle. As I am sure you know, it's all about traction. Some traction is used in the turn, some in the braking, some on acceleration. If the sum of the force exceeds the amount of traction, well you know where that goes.

One of the most important things to learn on the track is being smooth. Since you are around to talk about it, you have passed your first lesson.

"JimWallace"
tuck is very possible.....could also be that you had your weight thrown off a LOT in order to get your knee down, (which is fine) but if you dont have enough speed/decelerate then it will throw off the CG and you will go down. the more you lean typically the more speed/momentum you will need.

[jimwallace]

i think this is a very good idea for a thread, i know i could certainly get some good info out of it, and hopefully be of some help to others.

[Tipys]

I agree my view is to learn as much as you can and if you can help someone else learn too thats even better.

[64BonnieLass]

So I found myself being slow in turn 2, 7 and 9 per usual, then hitting the throttle too hard before the exit point maybe??? I felt the back tire slide in 7 and as a noob never felt that before. So smoothness counts and I learned the semi-hard/safe way.

At what point do you hit it on that turn or any turn for that matter? I don't even think I"m asking the right question maybe.

[Tipys]

I come in high on that corner on the outside and then tuck in less of an angle.

[jimwallace]

the moment before you start to rise from your lean is when you want to get on it.... i think thats about the simplest way to say it. it is over simplified but until you feel it

[64BonnieLass]

Okay Jim that helps A LOT. Can't even tell ya. It would be a smooth transition. And I can visualize that in terms of when to hit the throttle. Soooo, coast through the turn with minimal throttle, then rise up and throttle????

Now, how fast in the straights and when do you scrub speed and shift down? As in #1 and #9. And in what gear? I was in 3rd I think on 9.

[jimwallace]

that is a very good question and honestly it is entirely different for everyone, it depends on how fast you are going, how fast you can scrub off speed, the line you are entering, and so much more. ...... start slow pick a point try it at a slower speed, then try again a little faster and modify if necessary, eventually you will have it.

[jimwallace]

and actually coast through turn and just as you feel the need to start to rise up, throttle. the throttle will not only give you more speed/lower times, but also pulls you up.

[Jayock]

Wow... Im not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in this thread. This is going to take a while.

[Jayock]

"Oldkneedragger"
Most likely the tucking was the result of too much (sudden) front brake at too much of a lean angle. As I am sure you know, it's all about traction. Some traction is used in the turn, some in the braking, some on acceleration. If the sum of the force exceeds the amount of traction, well you know where that goes.

One of the most important things to learn on the track is being smooth. Since you are around to talk about it, you have passed your first lesson.

Good points about traction. But too much braking, with no other inputs will usually cause a push, rather than a tuck. The tuck will be induced when traction is low, and the road or rider put additional inputs into the system

"JimWallace"
tuck is very possible.....could also be that you had your weight thrown off a LOT in order to get your knee down, (which is fine) but if you dont have enough speed/decelerate then it will throw off the CG and you will go down. the more you lean typically the more speed/momentum you will need.

I can't say I agree. It may cause you to turn sharper than you intended, but not make you crash. If this were the case, then everyone leaning way off in 7 would be crashing, because they are going slower than turn 1, but leaning just as far. Now, if someone panicked because they were turning too sharp, and didn't adjust properly, thats another story.

[Sean]

www.mra-racing.org

Go to the forums. Tips from guys that can ride the snot out of a track. Seems like they are always willing to offer insight.

[Jayock]

and actually coast through turn and just as you feel the need to start to rise up, throttle. the throttle will not only give you more speed/lower times, but also pulls you up.

Coasting may be a bad word. Typically you decelerate at least a little to the apex, then accelerate at least a little after the apex.

Great point about the geometric effects of the bike. When you brake, you are compressing the forks, which decreases your total bike length, decreases the angle of instance between your steering head and the road, and makes the bike turn in much better. When you apply throttle, the exact opposite happens, and makes the bike resist turning. Therefore you use the brakes to help you turn, and use the throttle to help you stop turning.

[Jayock]

Okay Jim that helps A LOT. Can't even tell ya. It would be a smooth transition. And I can visualize that in terms of when to hit the throttle. Soooo, coast through the turn with minimal throttle, then rise up and throttle????

I also heard Joe speaking and a tip was to always look at your inside curbing line on a turn. I realized that it helps a ton in the turns. I tried it in the morning and it freeking worked.

Now, how fast in the straights and when do you scrub speed and shift down? As in #1 and #9. And in what gear? I was in 3rd I think on 9.

Like previously stated, this will vary. Its all about the gearing, bike, and rider.
What I typically do to learn a braking point is:

Go full speed, but brake extra early, and brake your hardest. You will have to let off the brakes and coast into the corner. Now, keep moving your brake marker a little deeper (going full speed, full throttle until your brake marker) into the corner until the coasting is gone, and you brake until right when you need to turn. Now you have your brake marker.

[UglyDogRacing]

the moment before you start to rise from your lean is when you want to get on it.... i think thats about the simplest way to say it. it is over simplified but until you feel it

You should be linear on the throttle from the apex to the exit. Start smoothly rolling on the throttle once you're off the brakes. As your lean angle decreases coming out of the corner, your throttle delivery should be increasing. If you wait till the moment before you start to rise from your lean and get on it, you are asking for a highside to happen.

and actually coast through turn and just as you feel the need to start to rise up, throttle. the throttle will not only give you more speed/lower times, but also pulls you up.

You should never be coasting through a turn. You should be smooth on the brakes going in and, once off the brakes, smoothly rolling on the throttle coming out. If you find yourself coasting then back off a little and practice the transition from the brakes to the throttle.

Soooo, coast through the turn with minimal throttle, then rise up and throttle????

No. See response above.

I also heard Joe speaking and a tip was to always look at your inside curbing line on a turn. I realized that it helps a ton in the turns. I tried it in the morning and it freeking worked.

You should be looking where you want to go, not down at the curbing. If you are in a 90 degree corner (like turn 2,3,9,10), you should be looking at the exit of the turn. If you are in a 180 degree corner (such as 1 and 4) you should be looking at midcorner at entry and continue looking through the turn so that at midcorner you are looking at the exit. If you are looking down at the inside of the curbing you will be doing whats called 'riding the front wheel" and you will find yourself having to constantly make corrections in the middle of the turn.

"JimWallace"
tuck is very possible.....could also be that you had your weight thrown off a LOT in order to get your knee down, (which is fine)

This is not fine. You shouldnt be trying throw your weight off alot in order to get your knee down. Getting your knee down will come in time once your corner speed is at a point that the lean angle of the bike needs to be greater and your body's center of gravity needs to lower. The first thing you should be concerned with regarding body position is that you are moving your head and shoulder towards the inside. The rest of your body hanging off will be a gradual procession as your speed and lean angle increase.

"JimWallace"
but if you dont have enough speed/decelerate then it will throw off the CG and you will go down. the more you lean typically the more speed/momentum you will need.

This is backwards. It should be the more speed/momentum the more lean angle is required. Trying to hang off the bike too much in the beginning is going to upset the chassis and hamper a rider developing their corner speed.

[Snowman]

First rule on taking advice. Everyone is different, what one person does to get around the track may or may not work for you.

Example: Terri is lighter than me. She will be able to accelerate and brake faster than I can just because of the difference in mass. Therefore, how I go into any corner will differ a bit from her line just because of the physics.

You need to understand the basics of what the bike is doing and why. Then go about figuring YOUR line through the corners.

This is a place to start.... Twist of the Wrist: The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook (Paperback)

[UglyDogRacing]

First rule. Everyone is different, what one person does to get around the track may or may not work for you.

Example: Terri is lighter than Me. She will be able to accelerate and brake faster than I can just because of the different in mass. So how I go into any corner will differ a bit from her line just becuase of the physics.

You need to understand the basics of what the bike is doing and why. Then go about figuring YOUR line through the corners…

This is a place to start.... Twist of the Wrist: The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook (Paperback)

wrong link. i think you meant this one- http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Mo.../dp/0965045013

Twist of the Wrist II is actually a little better - http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Ba.../dp/0965045021

But neither talk much about body positioning or body steering. Check out this book by Nick Ienatsch http://www.amazon.com/Sport-Riding-T...ref=pd_sim_b_2

[Snowman]

Thanks man, good catch... got it fixed.

[64BonnieLass]

"You should be looking where you want to go, not down at the curbing".

Yes, I didn't type out what he actually said very well. He didn't say to look down. It was more of a comment on looking through the turn. Sorry about that.

[Snowman]

Twist of the Wrist II is actually a little better - http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Ba.../dp/0965045021

I agree, its a better book for someone who has raced before. But it doesn't cover the basics like the first one did. Since Terri is brand new to any form of racing I would suggest the first book.

Every problem she has mentioned so far in this thread is covered in that book from picking turning points to figuring out lines that work for the individual person.

[*GSXR~SNAIL*]

Jim-

Great stuff...thanks. You need to do this full-time man. Excellent instructor!

[Player 2]

Jim totally helped me rock the track on Sunday. His expert advice on lines to take really helped me get past some mental blocks (especially turn 7)

Jim is da man

[lovinCO]

Jim totally helped me rock the track on Sunday. His expert advice on lines to take really helped me get past some mental blocks (especially turn 7)

Jim is da man

Jim's a big poopiehead. He just blew by me and vanished into the distance. I guess that's how you get a top ten # on your bike!!

Happy belated Bday Jim, hope you had fun riding on your birthday.

[Sortarican]

Terri,
Just an observation specifically about your riding on Sunday:

Noticed your bike doesn't have a tach, and with the wind noise, helmet, other bikes, etc. it was probably difficult to hear much.
I was in #7 and I could hear your bike quite well, and you were really low in the rev range.
I'm guessing you were purposely keeping it low for fear of over reving it, but you had a lot of room left in a gear when you were shifting up.

I think you'd really benefit from a tach or a shift/gear indicator for that new bike.
Without some sort of feedback it's hard to stay in the power band where your bike will perform a lot differently (and better) than it does bogging down in the low revs.

Upside is: you where never at risk of blowing up the engine or locking the rear wheel up when downshifting.
But you've definitely got a lot more room than I think you're aware of on that bike.

Outside of that from what I saw you did a great job. Picked your lines well and rolled on the power through the exit.
I'm sure the speed will keep coming as you get used to that bike and work with the gang on technique.