Triumph of Ignorance

[Pandora-11]

Well Ninja, I believe we need to use whatever sources available to cure these diseases, but then...and you know what I will say here, I believe we must stop short of using embryonic stem cells that have been harvested expressly for this purpose when there are other viable means for obtaining the stem cells. You asked me what I thought about this issue and I make no apologies for believingin life and for me that is at conception. Believe in whatever you want, and I will trust that you will allow me the same. I'll fight for my position and you do the same. Can't help what I believe....as far as education goes...I have graduate degrees.

As far as looking in the mirror, I'll deal with my imperfections as I find them. I don't know what you see and nothing I do will change what you see. I can imagine you see ignorance, a person not seeing things clearly (as you can), hypocrisy for you expect perfection from me...(a little hard to do when you're stupid to boot) and someone standing in your way. I don't know. I'm sure you'll tell me what you see. I'll go to bed now and maybe I'll have more fight in me for a day that has gone better.
'night sweets.

[Nick_Ninja]

Well Ninja, I believe we need to use whatever sources available to cure these diseases, but then...and you know what I will say here, I believe we must stop short of using embryonic stem cells that have been harvested expressly for this purpose when there are other viable means for obtaining the stem cells. You asked me what I thought about this issue and I make no apologies for believingin life and for me that is at conception. Believe in whatever you want, and I will trust that you will allow me the same. I'll fight for my position and you do the same. Can't help what I believe....as far as education goes...I have graduate degrees.

As far as looking in the mirror, I'll deal with my imperfections as I find them. I don't know what you see and nothing I do will change what you see. I can imagine you see ignorance, a person not seeing things clearly (as you can), hypocrisy for you expect perfection from me...(a little hard to do when you're stupid to boot) and someone standing in your way. I don't know. I'm sure you'll tell me what you see. I'll go to bed now and maybe I'll have more fight in me for a day that has gone better.
'night sweets.

I couldn't care less about your situation. I'm going on a 400 mile ride in the morning and your not. You live in a red county of Colorado and I don't (thank God). It must suck to be you.

[dirkterrell]

One theme is both familiar and clear: religion - in particular fundamentalist religion - makes you stupid.

It is this kind of condescending attitude that breeds contempt for supposedly educated people. It rears its ugly head in these parts when discussions of biological evolution arise and it makes me cringe to hear the smugness of some people who look down their noses at others even if they are correct in arguing the scientific validity of the arguments for evolution. Such behavior unchecked leads to things like the Reign of Terror and to inflame such hatred is, well, stupid.

Some thoughts:

"There is nobody so irritating as somebody with less intelligence and more sense than we have."
Don Herold

"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
William James

Dirk

[mtnairlover]

It makes me wonder why much of the rest of the world sees Americans as ignorant these days. I know there was a time in our history where the world view wasn't as negative.

Has anyone here traveled outside this country recently? Have you ever spoken to people in other countries and heard things from their perspective?

The other thing that makes me ponder is the idea that people are the same around the world. People will tend to find fault as much as possible and show it off for everyone to see when others are watching. Is there a reason for others to paint the negative picture our country seems to have created in the rest of the world?

Or...is that article from that website something that the hate-mongers have created? And I don't mean hate-mongers as in the left. I mean hate-mongers as in the extremists who wish to do away with Western culture altogether.

I'm trying to look at all sides here.

Some of what was said in that article is true though, and no one has mentioned that truth here yet.

[Chilly]

"It wasn’t always like this. The founding fathers of the republic - men like Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams and Alexander Hamilton - were among the greatest thinkers of their age. They felt no need to make a secret of it. How did the project they launched degenerate into George W Bush and Sarah Palin?"

Can anyone tell me that the current situation we are in reeks of a kick-ass American Lifestyle? Does it look like we are kicking ass, and taking names? Are we at the top of the food chain as far as education, GDP, domestic production, continuing education, cheap colleges, job creation etc...? I love what USA stands for, I am proud of our history, I am proud to say we have run things for decades, and we are the youngest union of states aggregated so large... We have had one real hard core revolution, we have abolished a great deal of idiot-policies, we have come up with ways to fight disease we have fought tyranny, and left a country that used to hold us captive by laws and taxation.

However, I have over the last few years had chills, fevers and watched as our civil liberties have been erased based on the fear of being attacked. The separation of Church and State is imperative, there should be absolutely no religion in politics. Christ walked into the temple and threw the tables of money handlers and tax men around the place, in disgust. Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, Krishna, all of them have not voted for red or blue, for conservative or liberal, and no where in my walk of faith have I found it stated or written that I, as a believer, was instructed to vote for Bush, Obama, Mickey Mouse, whoever.

What has happened are the opinions and translations of text, holy scriptures and commandments being construed and taken as literal calls to arms. More people have lost their lives in the name of His Holiness. Why? What is it that we have been taught by our faiths? Is it to kill the enemy? Is it to build monetary edifices, external greatness, an outward castle of how great we are by our own understandings? We are here to enjoy living, and help those that are less fortunate, build our families, love our neighbors, and treat others as we would be treated ourselves?

We all need to be the change we wish to see in life. There is no politician that can change the world, the world has to change the politicians. We vote for them, we have the right to define who is and who is not in charge, have we forgotten that? Can the very United States exist without us? -No...

So for the while, we fight over the same tired issues, the same heated debates. There is one hell of a change coming, one that hits everyone, a global emergency of sorts. Carry trade is unwinding, inflation looms at the doors of every household in THE WORLD. There is no limit to the far reaching affects of what is going on in the markets, derivative market, the housing based financials, the municipal bonds, the average Joe is average, and the average american has not payed any attention to where we are headed. It took eight years of the last administration to open the eyes of (some of) the public. What amazes me is that every four years everyone becomes an armchair senator, a soapbox president, an officer of the military and a die hard this or that.... What happens when the world realizes that the average Joe has been herded, pushed and forged into something that takes every spoonful of the medicine that would have created fire in the bellies of the Founding Fathers? Master degrees, PHD's, High School dropouts, are about to get it in both eyes if we keep fighting this battle of who what and where.... Fine, keep arguing between yourselves for the sake of nothing being accomplished.

I don't listen to many, and I trust even fewer than that... There are changes coming, and they are the types of changes that create an unchangeable future... Liberty is defined as:

autonomy: immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence
freedom of choice; "liberty of opinion"; "liberty of worship"; "liberty--perfect liberty--to think or feel or do just as one pleases"; "at liberty to choose whatever occupation one wishes"
personal freedom from servitude or confinement or oppression


-Tell me this is what we are living in...

Ignorance is running rampant, the golden rule is tarnished.

I will crawl into my hole, again. Swing with heavy hands, people; heavy hands.... The more we chase each other, and fight one another, the easier it is for the fight to be cornered, fighters worn out. Save your energy, you'll need it.

I own a Triumph.

[AirAssault]

The article though over the top did have some good points. America is ignorant in many ways but I need to save my time and fingers for this guy...

I"m not sure we religious right types WILL get pissed off at stuff like this anymore. We have heard the arrogance of the left for so long that we don't even flinch at it. Until the left gets it, there can be nothing to be said in response to it. Just leave us in our "stupidity" and get out of our way. Your opinions about our beliefs are like water running off a duck's back and the fact that we don't care what the left thinks about it should one day make you all shut up. I have had the left's tire tracks over my face for years and I'm accustomed to it. I'll leave the diatribe and point by point analysis for The Black Knight. As for all the rest of the lefties who have the desire to agree with this. So...?

(you and your means the religious right. If you feel the same way, means you too)
LoL, how does this have anything to do with the "left"? The true arrogance is that of the bible thumpers that they believe they need to convert every one to jesus, get in peoples' bedroom to tell them what they can and can't do, make it illegal for 2 people to get married, try to teach your version of a fairy tail in public schools...... Need more? In another post you said christians are the most persecuted? LoL that is a joke, how many people died in the name of your god by self righteous hypocrites supposedly "spreading gods words"? Crusade ring a bell? Spanish inquisition? Don't even get me started on pedophile priests that were protected by every one up to the pope..... Moron palin calls Bill Ayeres a terrorist yet says calling an abortion clinic bomber a terrorists is "wrong".... PALIN:There’s no question that Bill Ayers via his own admittance was one who sought to destroy our U.S. Capitol and our Pentagon. That is a domestic terrorist. There’s no question there. Now, others who would want to engage in harming innocent Americans or facilities that uh, it would be unacceptable. I don’t know if you’re going to use the word terrorist there."
What? So it's ok to bomb abortion clinics in the name of your god but they aren't terrorists?
Keep your religion out of the public schools, out of legislation of the laws and then maybe the "left" will leave you alone. You want your child to pray in school, send them to a private "god" school. You don't like abortion, don't have one. You don't like gay marriage, then don't get married to a gay person. The fact that you don't like/want these things because they go against YOUR gods teachings is your issue that you need to deal with. In no way should YOUR religious beliefs impair my ability to make choices in my life I see fit in making.

[Player 2]

In another post you said christians are the most persecuted? LoL that is a joke, how many people died in the name of your god by self righteous hypocrites supposedly "spreading gods words"? Crusade ring a bell? Spanish inquisition?

Keep your religion out of the public schools, out of legislation of the laws and then maybe the "left" will leave you alone.

In no way should YOUR religious beliefs impair my ability to make choices in my life I see fit in making.

What he said...

[Pandora-11]

The article though over the top did have some good points. America is ignorant in many ways but I need to save my time and fingers for this guy...

NOt a guy


(you and your means the religious right. If you feel the same way, means you too)
LoL, how does this have anything to do with the "left"? The true arrogance is that of the bible thumpers that they believe they need to convert every one to jesus, get in peoples' bedroom to tell them what they can and can't do, make it illegal for 2 people to get married, try to teach your version of a fairy tail in public schools...... Need more? In another post you said christians are the most persecuted? LoL that is a joke, how many people died in the name of your god by self righteous hypocrites supposedly "spreading gods words"? Crusade ring a bell? Spanish inquisition? Don't even get me started on pedophile priests that were protected by every one up to the pope..... Moron palin calls Bill Ayeres a terrorist yet says calling an abortion clinic bomber a terrorists is "wrong".... PALIN:There’s no question that Bill Ayers via his own admittance was one who sought to destroy our U.S. Capitol and our Pentagon. That is a domestic terrorist. There’s no question there. Now, others who would want to engage in harming innocent Americans or facilities that uh, it would be unacceptable. I don’t know if you’re going to use the word terrorist there."
What? So it's ok to bomb abortion clinics in the name of your god but they aren't terrorists?
Keep your religion out of the public schools, out of legislation of the laws and then maybe the "left" will leave you alone. You want your child to pray in school, send them to a private "god" school. You don't like abortion, don't have one. You don't like gay marriage, then don't get married to a gay person. The fact that you don't like/want these things because they go against YOUR gods teachings is your issue that you need to deal with. In no way should YOUR religious beliefs impare my ability to make choices in my life I see fit in making.

Sounds to me as if you think all Christians are extremists. Do Christians have a sordid history? yep. Money and power and the quest for it have done a number on Christians for years. We can replay that over and over forever. It's kinda like the slave issue. We will pay for that forever.
I personally don't believe teachers should preach prayers or doctrine in school. Do go to a Christian school if you want that. I don't care about gay marriage, love whom you love. As for bombing clinics, who is their right mind would be FOR that?
I believe in your right to believe as you see fit. The problem here is my faith and beliefs enter into how I vote and and decisions I make for myself. I use all my beliefs to look at the issues and how I decide them. I thought that was how you decide your issues too. When, though, as ridiculous as you think some of my beliefs are, did I lose my right to them? YOu don't have to be a Christian, your choice, make your arguments and decisions based on something else. We each get THAT vote and the majority will elect the reps who will decide that for us. Meanwhile, my first post was a half-hearted attempt tp stand up for myself and others who are constantly ridiculed for believing in something different from yours. Can I have it like you do? Talk to me at the voter box. That's all I have. The article that prompted this entire thing presupposes we Christians are stupid and dragging down the country.
I can't be intelligent and have beliefs? Go live your life. Im not bothering you. If most people think and feel as you do...goodie, you win.
I really do get to express them until this country, and it looks like this forum, decide that free speech is NOT what we want any longer.
My first post tells you how I feel treated for having a difference of belief...must have been a little like the pilgrims when they left England.

[AirAssault]

Sounds to me as if you think all Christians are extremists. Do Christians have a sordid history? yep. Money and power and the quest for it have done a number on Christians for years. We can replay that over and over forever. It's kinda like the slave issue. We will pay for that forever.
I personally don't believe teachers should preach prayers or doctrine in school. Do go to a Christian school if you want that. I don't care about gay marriage, love whom you love. As for bombing clinics, who is their right mind would be FOR that?
I believe in your right to believe as you see fit. The problem here is my faith and beliefs enter into how I vote and and decisions I make for myself. I use all my beliefs to look at the issues and how I decide them. I thought that was how you decide your issues too. When, though, as ridiculous as you think some of my beliefs are, did I lose my right to them? YOu don't have to be a Christian, your choice, make your arguments and decisions based on something else. We each get THAT vote and the majority will elect the reps who will decide that for us. Meanwhile, my first post was a half-hearted attempt tp stand up for myself and others who are constantly ridiculed for believing in something different from yours. Can I have it like you do? Talk to me at the voter box. That's all I have. The article that prompted this entire thing presupposes we Christians are stupid and dragging down the country.
I can't be intelligent and have beliefs? Go live your life. Im not bothering you. If most people think and feel as you do...goodie, you win.
I really do get to express them until this country, and it looks like this forum, decide that free speech is NOT what we want any longer.
My first post tells you how I feel treated for having a difference of belief...must have been a little like the pilgrims when they left England.

Who said you cant believe or say what you want? I didn't. Your religion is between you and your god not between me and your god, or the gay person that wants to marry, or the abortion Dr. or the person going to said Dr. for a medical procedure. When you vote to make it illegal for 2 people to marry, or try to decide another persons medical choice for them, or try and decide what I can and can't read/watch, yeah you are bothering me. I know you folks like to say this country was founded under gods rules... bullllll shiiiiit! The founding fathers in no way wanted religion to dictate our laws or way of life. I was raised a methodist and used to believe in god which gives me a taste from both sides. I have no issue with those that believe in god, go to church, pray, what ever just do it on YOUR time in YOUR home or where ever you want.......Just make sure you aren't trying to make every one live how you want them to, simply because you feel god is your co-pilot.

[Pandora-11]

Who said you cant believe or say what you want? I didn't. Your religion is between you and your god not between me and your god, or the gay person that wants to marry, or the abortion Dr. or the person going to said Dr. for a medical procedure. When you vote to make it illegal for 2 people to marry, or try to decide another persons medical choice for them, or try and decide what I can and can't read/watch, yeah you are bothering me. I know you folks like to say this country was founded under gods rules... bullllll shiiiiit! The founding fathers in no way wanted religion to dictate our laws or way of life. I was raised a methodist and used to believe in god which gives me a taste from both sides. I have no issue with those that believe in god, go to church, pray, what ever just do it on YOUR time in YOUR home or where ever you want.......Just make sure you aren't trying to make every one live how you want them to, simply because you feel god is your co-pilot.

So....what then? I have to vote YOUR way. I don't know what you want.
Why vote at all? You guys decide everything. HERE HERE, NO Christians may vote from here on out. New rule. BTW I don't consider God my co-pilot, but my pilot. Geez, I guess that is sooo trite to you. That's what it is what it is.

[Devaclis]

Ralph is gonna get Barned for starting this thread. Troll

[Canuck]

I have already gotten shit from Mr. Pandora via pm last night, asserting that i was being biased towards his views and wondering why I won't control the 'other sides remarks'. Well I was in bed at 10, so I may get up for my real job in the morning We aren't robots.

[Nick_Ninja]

I have already gotten shit from Mr. Pandora via pm last night, asserting that i was being biased towards his views and wondering why I won't control the 'other sides remarks'. Well I was in bed at 10, so I may get up for my real job in the morning We aren't robots.

And who opened up Pandora's Box anyway?

[bikernoj]

I'll even support the position by using the current example of the long fought battle of stem-cell research. So called believers maintain that it is against their religion to harvest embryonic stem-cells for scientific purposes.

Here's what I don't get: why does the Christian Right insist that stem cells ONLY come from embryos? That is only one of the MANY ways to harvest them, and had Bush been able to fire up all three neurons in his pea-head we would have fantastic CURES for many diseases by now.

Example: a young girl in Highlands Ranch was diagnosed with cerebral palsy; she couldn't walk or speak. After one treatment of mesochymal stem cells, she was jumping on the bed and learning to talk. Miracle? No, it's the result of stem cell research (the kind that Bush veoted EVERY SINGLE TIME!) from healthy adult donors.

This is the type of ignorance the article refers to ("I don't really understand it, but I don't like it anyway"), and in a nation that seems to worship stupidity it's no wonder intelligence is seen as "freakish." Though I don't believe that religion is the ROOT cause of this, I do believe that the underlying message of religion IS to blame. "Believe what we say or we'll hurt you" is a mantra too often repeated by the pious (note that I didn't say Christian), and brainwashing children to doubt their own perceptions of reality through holy teachings should be a crime.

[mtnairlover]

It isn't that Christians shouldn't vote...it's that government and politicians who wish to make law should keep religion out of the mix...as our founding fathers had wished when they formed our union. Anyone can find the information if you look. History has not been lost, it's been mis-interpreted and forgotten over the many years. But, all you need to do is look for it and read it.

I found a website of many of the letters written by Thomas Jefferson from the 1740s until the 1820s. I've read some letters between the founding fathers before and came away with the sense of what they were looking for in this new country and what they wanted to create. You can hear it in their writing.

Here's a snippet from one of the letters between Jefferson and David Ryttenhouse (foremost astronomer in his time)...

Writing to a philosopher, I may hope to be pardoned for intruding some thoughts of my own tho' they relate to him personally. Your time for two years past has, I believe, been principally employed in the civil government of your country. Tho' I have been aware of the authority our cause would acquire with the world from it's being known that yourself & Doc't. Franklin were zealous friends to it and am myself duly impressed with a sense of the arduousness of government, and the obligation those are under who are able to conduct it, yet I am also satisfied there is an order of geniusses above that obligation, & therefore exempted from it, nobody can conceive that nature ever intended to throw away a Newton upon the occupations of a crown. It would have been a prodigality for which even the conduct of providence might have been arraigned, had he been by birth annexed to what was so far below him. Cooperating with nature in her ordinary economy we should dispose of and employ the geniusses of men according to their several orders and degrees.

I don't get the sense that Jefferson looks down upon Ryttenhouse for being a philosopher. I don't get the sense that Jefferson believes that intellect should be quashed or put down when it comes to making decisions for the good of the people. On the contrary, he believes that a government should "employ the geniuses of men."

So why is it that intellect and intelligence is wrong in our world today when it was widely accepted over 200 years ago and sought after in the decisions of this country?

The letter was written in 1778 and here's a link to the site...
http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl13.htm

[Spiderman]

I don’t buy the premise of this article. An uneducated populace has more to do with the individuals than their government or religion. My opinion is that the majority of the people of this nation believe they are entitled just because they live here.

You can see it in the wave of nationalism and the belief that our way has to be the best for everyone. And people who believe their way is the only way generally do not accept any ideas that might be contradictive, even if these other ideas have real merit.

You can see this in our elections. In 2000 there were many more qualified, better educated and capable republican candidates for president than Bush. So why did the republicans vote the way they did in the primary? Lots of reasons, but one that has always mystified me, Bush W was entitled because his father was president. I mean what is that? You can see this same effect with the Democrats and the Clinton campaign in 2008.

The general view by the rest of the world is that we are self important uneducated heavily armed Jethroes who couldn’t give a rat’s ass on anything 10 feet beyond our borders. So its easy to see why they are losing interest and moving on with their ideas of a unified planet.

I think we need to get off our collective high horse and become more accepting of the larger world out there before we go the way of the Romans

[jimwallace]

here is the problem all over the world, and throughout history.

EXTREMISTS!!

Religeous extremists, war extremists, political extremists, seperationist extremists, racial extremists, sexism extremists......... and about everything else you can think of. everyone has a tendancy to lean one way or another on every opinion out there. the problem lies not with them but with those who are so extreme they will go out of their way and beyond their means to IMPOSE their ideas on others.

[Spiderman]

BTW Ninja, you sound so word by word like someone I used to love that it's eerie.
Guess you can see why that relationship didn't work out, huh?

Your past relationships are meaningless to me. The answer why the relationship didn't work out can only be found by taking a long hard look into the mirror in front of you.

Guys, either kiss & make up or take it to PM.

[Snowman]

Guys, either kiss & make up or take it to PM.

And whatever you do, do not under any circumstances make a video of it and put it on YouTube.

[Pandora-11]

I have already gotten shit from Mr. Pandora via pm last night, asserting that i was being biased towards his views and wondering why I won't control the 'other sides remarks'. Well I was in bed at 10, so I may get up for my real job in the morning We aren't robots.

Canuck,
You really should be honest enough to explain the reason for PM. Close Pandora's box Canuck, it's within your power.

NInja, Have a good ride today. boy, it really does suck to be me.

Mtnair, I don't want religion in gov't either. I would love to have an intelligent choice for President this year..sadly, that's not to be.

Did you guys not know Pandora was a girl? Mr? thanks
Anyone who reads this thread may very well decide for themselves who is intolerant and who isnt. Meanwhile, I guess the other Christians ran for the hills.

[Pandora-11]

here is the problem all over the world, and throughout history.

EXTREMISTS!!

Religeous extremists, war extremists, political extremists, seperationist extremists, racial extremists, sexism extremists......... and about everything else you can think of. everyone has a tendancy to lean one way or another on every opinion out there. the problem lies not with them but with those who are so extreme they will go out of their way and beyond their means to IMPOSE their ideas on others.

I agree with you. Balance and moderation is key. Some Taoists principle of yin and yan.
Off to my real job.

[Canuck]

I just tried to respond to you via pm. I had a long and very PC responce to your accusations on not being responsive to your needs. But thanks to ATT's shity mobile service and after I use so many bits, zee iPhone drops out of Safari and I lose my previous page info, [FU Steve Jobs!]
Anyhow, the point I was making to you was that you just joined and so far have instigated many of these threads with little understanding on the other members basic qwirks and ideology. You cried fowl and made accusations with out even knowing fellow members history or their basic philosophy behind them. That part takes time on you to warm up to the membership. You have had less than a month and have so far created a moniker by others for your early judgement.

[salsashark]

Meanwhile, I guess the other Christians ran for the hills.

...nope

I posted my opinion.

I've been around long enough to see this train wreck of a thread coming a mile away.

I have no desire to get mired down in the name calling and other BS that comes along with it. Intolerance from any side is non-productive.

I think Chilly said it best:

We are here to enjoy living, and help those that are less fortunate, build our families, love our neighbors, and treat others as we would be treated ourselves?

[dirkterrell]

So why is it that intellect and intelligence is wrong in our world today when it was widely accepted over 200 years ago and sought after in the decisions of this country?

I don't think there is a widespread belief that intelligence is "wrong." I think the backlash is against the kind of arrogance I mentioned in my earlier post. The "I am educated and smart and you are uneducated and stupid." mentality that was oozing from the article Ralph linked. I don't think it's exclusively a political left/right thing but the tendencies of the two groups are pretty clear in my experience. I see it every day. Lack of education doesn't equate to stupidity.

As someone who grew up in a somewhat poor, religious Southern family and went on to get a PhD in astrophysics, I straddle both "cultures" if you will, so I have an interesting perspective on the situation. I think what we have primarily lost is a lack of respect and civility towards people who think differently than we do. We (on both sides) seem to have lost the ability to respect the fact that people have different views of various subjects and there is a tendency to look down on each other, i.e. "stupid conservative voters" or "elitist liberal voters." When that kind of animosity progresses, it leads us down a very dark path.

Dirk