Students file complaint against CU for campus gun ban

[Pandora-11]

...you do realize that I'm advocating that the guns be allowed on campus if the student has a CCW permit, right?

I'm running back and forth on my laptop...so...nope, missed that part.
Thought you were advocating college students were too young.
Back to rereading I guess.
My bad.

Ok...you don't have any sense on this either.

[MetaLord 9]

You've gotta realize that the only god Steve believes in is bacon.

[dirkterrell]

Exactly..and I would agree with you, but not in the hands of babes. They aren't any more able to handle this than a 5 year old. Is Metalord the only one here who makes any sense on this issue?

21 year olds are not "babes." They are adults and should not have their rights violated because others might break the law.

Dirk

[McVaaahhh]

Speaking to the ignorance of your first post wasn't meant to be an insult, but how you feel is your problem.

Saying out loud that my opinion on a subject is a demonstration of ignorance is insulting.

...Carry states and places that allow permit holders to carry are safer places.

Says who? Point me to a study that says that Colorado is a safer state to live in BECAUSE you can get a ccw permit.

When was the last time you saw a gun shop robbed? If 7-eleven allowed each clerk to carry in its stores armed robbers would skip them over and try the kum and go instead.

I've seen plenty of video and read stories of convenience stores being robbed even with a gun within easy reach. The gun is only effective if you've got time to pull it.

Kids doing keg stands are not the type to make it through all the stuff it takes to carry, so worry not.

So what you're saying is that EVERYONE that gets a CCW permit is an angel and would NEVER EVER pull that gun at an inappropriate time? If you really believe that, than you're pointing the ignorant finger at the wrong person.

Maybe this was inappropriate:
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/262399.php

Another brain surgeon with a ccw

http://www.ohiovalleypolitics.com/20...carry-permits/

Man arrested on drug charges with a CCW
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/orla...6MJ2OR4BNAE0KJ

The point is, allowing law abiding citizens who have taken all the necessary steps to legally cary is a win for all involved. It creates safer establishments and I challenge you to find ONE case where someone who could legally carry went on a rampage. However, you can find MANY cases where someone who can legally carry stopped what could have been much worse.

I am NOT debating CCW at all. It is simply my opinion that college students should not have guns in school classrooms. By your logic we should allow high school students to carry guns. Shit, that might have stopped Columbine. How about the elementary school students that went on a rampage. Maybe we should allow 3rd graders to carry?

I believe that guns (concealed or otherwise) have no business being carried by students in any school.

...Think back to the church in the Springs last year, imagine if the lady hadn't shot that guy and he had made his way into the church where there were hundreds of people gathered....with 15 mags and an assault rifle. Does that mean we should ban assault rifles? Hardly, but it does prove that legal carry is the answer as we will never know how many people could have died.

No, armed security guards were the answer in that case. Don't ever call me ignorant.

[puckstr]

You've gotta realize that the only god Steve believes in is bacon.

Bacon
Beer
Boobs
Bikes
and guns..... BTW they are real and I can touch them

[MetaLord 9]

Pandora, here's the point I was making earlier:

The process that someone has to go through to posess a CCW permit is, I'm sure, extensive and not something that the average drunken frat kid is likely to do in a weekend to avoid a term paper. A firearm is not cheap and neither is the CCW permit. Part of maturing is understanding and accepting responsibility. Owning a firearm and being able to conceal it is truely a weighty responsibility, but not so much that our university students cannot handle it.

...

Should someone be banned & prosecuted for posessing an otherwise legal weapon on a college campus? Of course not.

[TFOGGuys]

I'm not advocating that every student be allowed to carry, I'm just of the opinion that persons that have already undertaken the training and qualifications to exercise their effective right to self defense should be allowed to do so without arbitrary regulations imposed by the university. University policy is based on a formal opinion by one Ken Salazar that his interpretation of the law allowed them to regulate the possession of weapons, even though the Supreme Court had already ruled that state law concerning the issuance and validity of CCW permits superceded city and county ordinances. To wit: A CCW permit issued by any county is valid in all areas of the state, except as specifically prohibited by state or Federal law.

[Pandora-11]

21 year olds are not "babes." They are adults and should not have their rights violated because others might break the law.

Dirk

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

[Sortarican]

Yes chain saws are offensive

So is Chris. But they still let him on a college campus.
(All be it Ohio State, which barely qualifies as an institution of higher learning.)

[puckstr]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

If the firearms are properly CONCEALED you will never know they are there.

[TFOGGuys]

Says who? Point me to a study that says that Colorado is a safer state to live in BECAUSE you can get a ccw permit.

Fact: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:
• Murder rates drop 8%
• Rape rates fall 5%
• Aggravated assaults drop 7%
Fact: More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws
Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national
averages.
Fact: Deaths and injuries from mass
public shootings fall dramatically after
right-to-carry concealed handgun laws
are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995, the
average death rate from mass shootings
plummeted by up to 91% after such laws
went into effect, and injuries dropped by
over 80%.
Myth: People with concealed weapons permits will commit
crimes
Fact: The results for the first
30 states that passed “shallissue”
laws for concealed carry
permits are similar. Here are
some specific cases:
Fact: People with concealed
carry permits are:
• 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
• 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
Fact: In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime.
They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime.

source:http://rmgo.org/images/GunFacts4-2-Press.pdf

all sources are annotated within the page, most are FBI or similar

[MetaLord 9]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

Again, if you don't like the people who have a CCW permit, don't go after them, or even after the entity that's infringing on their rights! Go after the process that allowed them to have it in the first place! Don't think college kids should have a CCW permit? Then you should be lobbying your legislators to increase the minimum age to acquire a CCW permit, not trying to limit the ability of someone who legally acquired a CCW permit to exercise their ability to carry a concealed firearm.

So is Chris. But they still let him on a college campus.
(All be it Ohio State, which barely qualifies as an institution of higher learning.)

at least I managed to stay at an institution of higher learning for more than a handful of semesters!

[McVaaahhh]

Thanks Jim.

[will-t]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

The problem with this analogy is that unlike a concert or the airport, not everyone on a college campus is searched. There are not metal detectors on every entrance to every building and walking paths through campus are not secluded from the rest of the world.

At an airport, once you pass a certain point, no one is armed (unless a screener didn't do their job properly). On a college campus, you have to deal with people who may or may not be present for the purpose of learning or even because they belong on campus.

Also, you called 21 year olds babes. At what point does someone become an adult capable of making, in your opinion, proper and reasonable choices? At 21 friends of mine were in foreign countries carrying machine guns protecting entire populations from dangerous elements. At 21 people can vote. At 21 people are most of the way through college and are expected to be gearing up to join society in a productive manner.

So they can help decide who runs the country, they can die for that country, they can be sought after as the next members of productive society, but they can't be trusted to be responsible in their own self defense?

[dirkterrell]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc.

If everyone were searched before being allowed to enter a secured campus, you might have a point. As it is, the law abiding will be disarmed, the criminals know they will face no resistance for who knows how long until the police arrive, assess what's going on and neutralize the murderer. You end up with events like the Virginia Tech, Nothern Illinois, L’École Polytechnique,... massacres.


Dirk

[TFOGGuys]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

Under Colorado law, they could legally prevent the carriage of weapons simply by installing metal detectors in all of their buildings. Under those conditions, carrying a concealed weapon would be illegal. But the University doesn't stop with concealed carry. They prohibit the possession of ANY weapon(including mace or tear gas), anywhere on campus, including a locked vehicle, dorm room, etc. Do you think there might be a reduction in the number of sexual assaults at CU Boulder if the potential rapists knew that a significant chance of being shot in the attempt existed?

In reality, a gun is the only "equalizer" that is truly effective for a smaller, weaker victim against a larger, stronger attacker. No matter how well trained a 5 foot 6, 120 pound woman is, a 6 foot, 200 pound man that is even slightly trained and determined will be able to subdue her.

[Devaclis]

Exactly..and I would agree with you, but not in the hands of babes. They aren't any more able to handle this than a 5 year old. Is Metalord the only one here who makes any sense on this issue?

Is the only reason he makes sense because you think he is agreeing with you?

I see how this works.

[Sortarican]

Go after the process that allowed them to have it in the first place!

at least I managed to stay at an institution of higher learning for more than a handful of semesters!

Agreed, there's a fine line between keeping CCW access available and handing them out like baseball cards.
Though I haven't taken any of the courses out there specifically geared to getting your CCW,
from what I've heard they're not as stringent as they might be.

BTW, everyone knows that 1 semester at Penn State has a transfer credit value of an associate’s degree at OU.
And just 'cause they kept you in a cage for 4 years at the OU animal husbandry lab, it doesn't entitle you to a degree.

[MetaLord 9]

The problem with this analogy is that unlike a concert or the airport, not everyone on a college campus is searched. There are not metal detectors on every entrance to every building and walking paths through campus are not secluded from the rest of the world.

At an airport, once you pass a certain point, no one is armed (unless a screener didn't do their job properly). On a college campus, you have to deal with people who may or may not be present for the purpose of learning or even because they belong on campus.

Also, you called 21 year olds babes. At what point does someone become an adult capable of making, in your opinion, proper and reasonable choices? At 21 friends of mine were in foreign countries carrying machine guns protecting entire populations from dangerous elements. At 21 people can vote. At 21 people are most of the way through college and are expected to be gearing up to join society in a productive manner.

So they can help decide who runs the country, they can die for that country, they can be sought after as the next members of productive society, but they can't be trusted to be responsible in their own self defense?

!

[puckstr]

Agreed, there's a fine line between keeping CCW access available and handing them out like baseball cards.
Though I haven't taken any of the courses out there specifically geared to getting your CCW,
from what I've heard they're not as stringent as they might be.

I will let you know.

Man... I wish I was at the range right NOW

[TFOGGuys]

Agreed, there's a fine line between keeping CCW access available and handing them out like baseball cards.
Though I haven't taken any of the courses out there specifically geared to getting your CCW,
from what I've heard they're not as stringent as they might be.

Colorado requirements are quite lax, not so with other states. My CCW course was ~12 hours of classroom, and I had to demonstrate safe handling proficiency with a variety of weapons, as well as provide proof of prior shooting proficiency and experience.

[MetaLord 9]

BTW, everyone knows that 1 semester at Penn State has a transfer credit value of an associate’s degree at OU.
And just 'cause they kept you in a cage for 4 years at the OU animal husbandry lab, it doesn't entitle you to a degree.

Too bad that fine education that they manage to cram into your one semester at the State Penn failed to provide you with an education worthy of an institution of higher learning. For instance, OU are the initials for Oklahoma University and Ohio University (amongst many others), not Ohio State University (which woudl be OSU).

[will-t]

Colorado requirements are quite lax, not so with other states. My CCW course was ~12 hours of classroom, and I had to demonstrate safe handling proficiency with a variety of weapons, as well as provide proof of prior shooting proficiency and experience.

CO requirements for CCW involve taking a safety class, filling out a rather involved application, turning in said application with proof of successful completion of a class, the municipality where you apply then runs a criminal (laws) and civilian (banking, risk) background check on you and decides at that point if there is anything to disqualify you from earning a CCW.

The classes can range from a simple hunter safety course (12 hours of the most boring instruction you can imagine with a safe shooting proficiency test at the end), all the way up to dedicated concealed carry classes (many days consisting of classroom work mostly regarding CCW laws and firearm safety, and range time showing safe and proficient use of a number of firearms). Prices range from $20 or so for the hunter safety courses up to hundreds of dollars for the CCW specific classes. While seeking out classes myself, I found that the simple hunter safety courses are more difficult to get into. They fill up quickly because of actual hunters needing them to gain hunting licenses. Everyone I spoke with at gun or sportsman related shops suggested and provided informative materials for the more in depth CCW specific type of course. The cheapest of which was $150 and spanned 3 days.

The application process runs $153 plus any additional fees that your municipality decides to place on the process.

Depending on what municipality you go through, and how many applications they need to process, the entire deal can take anywhere from 2-12 weeks for the background checks to clear and decisions to be made.

Even with the lax requirements of CO, it's still enough of a process that it takes a bit of dedication on the part of the person attempting to qualify for and receive a CCW. Also, unlike the popular stereotype of gun nuts trying to get you into the club as fast as possible, everyone I've dealt with regarding CCW treated it as a very serious responsibility. No one suggested ways of shortcutting the system or any other less than safe behavior.

[Pandora-11]

Is the only reason he makes sense because you think he is agreeing with you?

I see how this works.

Ha....no...his arguments are at least reasoned and he is making a case for a position I might be convinced of.

I can believe in bacon.....You guys are too funny.

Good debate though.