Students file complaint against CU for campus gun ban

[Speedwagon]

I have three nieces and nephews at UF where firearms issues have occurred. You don't give kids more to carry than they are capable of carrying.....and as someone who is around teens everyday, believe me when I say Ninja is right on this one...they don't even need water pistols.

But it's already been stated multiple times, that you need to be 21 for a CCW. So that completely takes teens out of it.

The part I don't get in so many people's arguments, is you keep bringing up college kids. If you can't CCW until 21, that rules out 3/4 of college 'kids' right there. There is a large difference between 18 and 21. And I'm willing to bet that no more than 1 or 2% of ALL 21 year olds even think about getting a CCW. So how many 'kids' do you really think even carry?

[TFOGGuys]

CO requirements for CCW involve taking a safety class, filling out a rather involved application, turning in said application with proof of successful completion of a class, the municipality where you apply then runs a criminal (laws) and civilian (banking, risk) background check on you and decides at that point if there is anything to disqualify you from earning a CCW.

The classes can range from a simple hunter safety course (12 hours of the most boring instruction you can imagine with a safe shooting proficiency test at the end), all the way up to dedicated concealed carry classes (many days consisting of classroom work mostly regarding CCW laws and firearm safety, and range time showing safe and proficient use of a number of firearms). Prices range from $20 or so for the hunter safety courses up to hundreds of dollars for the CCW specific classes. While seeking out classes myself, I found that the simple hunter safety courses are more difficult to get into. They fill up quickly because of actual hunters needing them to gain hunting licenses. Everyone I spoke with at gun or sportsman related shops suggested and provided informative materials for the more in depth CCW specific type of course. The cheapest of which was $150 and spanned 3 days.

The application process runs $153 plus any additional fees that your municipality decides to place on the process.

Depending on what municipality you go through, and how many applications they need to process, the entire deal can take anywhere from 2-12 weeks for the background checks to clear and decisions to be made.

Even with the lax requirements of CO, it's still enough of a process that it takes a bit of dedication on the part of the person attempting to qualify for and receive a CCW. Also, unlike the popular stereotype of gun nuts trying to get you into the club as fast as possible, everyone I've dealt with regarding CCW treated it as a very serious responsibility. No one suggested ways of shortcutting the system or any other less than safe behavior.

Many counties will not accept a Hunter safety course(Jeffco, for instance, states this on their CCW FAQ page). My class was a dedicated Colorado/Utah CCW course. The reasons for having a Utah permit as well as a Colorado permit are several, and not relevant to this thread.

[Pandora-11]

But it's already been stated multiple times, that you need to be 21 for a CCW. So that completely takes teens out of it.

The part I don't get in so many people's arguments, is you keep bringing up college kids. If you can't CCW until 21, that rules out 3/4 of college 'kids' right there. There is a large difference between 18 and 21. And I'm willing to bet that no more than 1 or 2% of ALL 21 year olds even think about getting a CCW. So how many 'kids' do you really think even carry?

These 21 year olds probably live off campus. Have your gun...just dont bring it on campus around the toddlers. Colleges get to decide this...not us.

[PROFLYER]

Not really a good example for your argument.
She was a member of the church's security staff. Not an average Joe with a CCW permit.
I don't think most people have a problem with having armed security on campus.

Wrong, she is a former cop who was known by the church as a carrying member. She made the call to have extra security on site. She is NOT on the payroll, if she had been his family would have sued the church big time. The coroner did her a favor as well by citing cause of death as self-inflicted, again, saving her from a huge lawsuit.

VT had security, it didn't save anyone, the cops were there within minutes...still didn't save anyone. I could care less if you agree with me or not, but those of us that do carry choose to because we're smart enough to know that when seconds matter the cops are just minutes away. The average response time in most cities is under 7 minutes, yet people are still massacred annually. It is your life and the life of your family possibly, and it is your choice to make. I do know for a fact that a well armed society is a polite society and have seen first hand what armed citizens can do to thwart unprovoked violent crime. These mass killings happen because people snap and go into a place where they know they will be unopposed.

[PROFLYER]

YOu obviously don't have a teenager....and some of the kids aren't retarded. Mine of course... She's a beautiful, smart, and mature student just looking for a her education. She doesn't doesn't need to be worrying abut who in his drunken state is going to pull a gun on her. The rest?......she can take down.

My ass, your little girl could be the next one attacked in the alley, quit lying to yourself. I hope she sticks with daddy's plan and never walks down the streets, because the guy leaving the frat party she just left is infinitely more able to kill her with his truck. No one with a CCW has ever gone off and killed someone. Lets look at how many students die per WEEKEND due to drinking/drugs and operating a 5000# weapon.

YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO EVEN POSESS A FIREARM! Most kids are seniors by then and the amount of training and discipline that's required to carry is (not enough) but tough to do. You guys act like it's the wild wild west, you'd never know who was carrying, and that's the point.

[Mental]

...YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO EVEN POSESS A FIREARM! Most kids are seniors by then and the amount of training and discipline that's required to carry is (not enough) but tough to do. You guys act like it's the wild wild west, you'd never know who was carrying, and that's the point.

Yeah, but if they are seniors with even the slightest bit of intellegnce and experince, they aren't on campus before noon and never have classes on Friday.

Who will think of the children?

[TFOGGuys]

My ass, your little girl could be the next one attacked in the alley, quit lying to yourself. I hope she sticks with daddy's plan and never walks down the streets, because the guy leaving the frat party she just left is infinitely more able to kill her with his truck. No one with a CCW has ever gone off and killed someone. Lets look at how many students die per WEEKEND due to drinking/drugs and operating a 5000# weapon.

YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO EVEN POSESS A FIREARM! Most kids are seniors by then and the amount of training and discipline that's required to carry is (not enough) but tough to do. You guys act like it's the wild wild west, you'd never know who was carrying, and that's the point.

At least 50% of parents that believe their kids are above average are WRONG.

[PROFLYER]

I am NOT debating CCW at all. It is simply my opinion that college students should not have guns in school classrooms. By your logic we should allow high school students to carry guns. Shit, that might have stopped Columbine. How about the elementary school students that went on a rampage. Maybe we should allow 3rd graders to carry?

I believe that guns (concealed or otherwise) have no business being carried by students in any school.



No, armed security guards were the answer in that case. Don't ever call me ignorant.

Then quit brandishing it. Again, if you took that first post as insulting, that's your fault, it wasn't meant to be.

But moving forward, I'm not saying that everyone needs to carry, perhaps our issue is your reading comprehension holdup. I've stated several times that you must be 21 to carry and I'm not for a second arguing that the laws should change. I'm simply arguing that if someone takes the necessary steps, forcing them to leave their gun in the car or at home or whatever at said establishment (school in this case) further enforces the fact that statistically mass killing happens at GUN FREE ZONES.

I didn't read your articles as there is always an exception to the rule, but overall the push has been positive and has lowered violent crime rates in the states that allow it.

[rforsythe]

No one with a CCW has ever gone off and killed someone.

I find that extremely hard to believe. Unlikely? Perhaps. But statistically speaking, some unstable asshat with a CCW has likely popped off a couple rounds when he wasn't defending himself. CCW's do not screen for, nor guarantee against someone being stupid. They just make sure you haven't in the past, and license you to do the right thing if absolutely necessary.

Lets look at how many students die per WEEKEND due to drinking/drugs and operating a 5000# weapon.

Yes, and that's illegal.

YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO EVEN POSESS A FIREARM!

Wrong! You can buy a long weapon at 18, a handgun at 21. You can have one in your posession legally at any age I believe, though as a minor there is probably something about parental supervision (I am not sure off hand). You have to be 21 to get a CCW.

You guys act like it's the wild wild west, you'd never know who was carrying, and that's the point.

No, I think people are acting like they don't want a bunch of college kids with guns, CCW or not. Even if a licensed, responsible 21 year old student is present with a gun, that doesn't mean some idiot won't find it in his dorm room one night and get dumb with it. That doesn't mean he won't slip up in traditional "college settings" (which happen about every other night) and cause an incident. Yeah I know the training is designed to prevent these things, but IMO the risk outweighs the remote potential benefit.

I don't think it should be illegal, however I think schools should be well within their rights to dictate policies as they see fit - and if they say no, then either respect that, or find somewhere else to be educated.

[PROFLYER]

Yeah, but if they are seniors with even the slightest bit of intellegnce and experince, they aren't on campus before noon and never have classes on Friday.

Who will think of the children?

I guess the kids are screwed!

[Devaclis]

Like I asked before, is it legal right now to have a weapon on capmus with a CCW?

If so, how many people in the last 5 years have been killed by a gun owned by a CCW holder? How many people there have been killed by a gun on campus at all? Do't run around screaming epidemic unless you have basis.

You guys need to stop living your lives scared of everything and just start living, YOUR lives.

[PROFLYER]

I find that extremely hard to believe. Unlikely? Perhaps. But statistically speaking, some unstable asshat with a CCW has likely popped off a couple rounds when he wasn't defending himself. CCW's do not screen for, nor guarantee against someone being stupid. They just make sure you haven't in the past, and license you to do the right thing if absolutely necessary.

Yes, and that's illegal.

Wrong! You can buy a long weapon at 18, a handgun at 21. You can have one in your posession legally at any age I believe, though as a minor there is probably something about parental supervision (I am not sure off hand). You have to be 21 to get a CCW.

No, I think people are acting like they don't want a bunch of college kids with guns, CCW or not. Even if a licensed, responsible 21 year old student is present with a gun, that doesn't mean some idiot won't find it in his dorm room one night and get dumb with it. That doesn't mean he won't slip up in traditional "college settings" (which happen about every other night) and cause an incident. Yeah I know the training is designed to prevent these things, but IMO the risk outweighs the remote potential benefit.

I don't think it should be illegal, however I think schools should be well within their rights to dictate policies as they see fit - and if they say no, then either respect that, or find somewhere else to be educated.

I meant the CCW has to be 21 as with any hand gun. You can't conceal a shotgun (well, you can, but you get my point).

I can carry at CSU, I have lots of friends who carry at CSU. They leave it when they go to parties, most honestly JUST carry to class incase some asshat comes in blasting.

I'm sure some CCW holder has popped off a few rounds being an idiot, we can't say NEVER to anything, but save from a few morons compared to the entire polity of CCW holders it's a non-issue.

[puckstr]

Like I asked before, is it legal right now to have a weapon on capmus with a CCW?

If so, how many people in the last 5 years have been killed by a gun owned by a CCW holder? How many people there have been killed by a gun on campus at all? Do't run around screaming epidemic unless you have basis.

You guys need to stop living your lives scared of everything and just start living, YOUR lives.

I

[Nick_Ninja]

I take extreame exception to who filed the claim:

Plaintiff Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, LLC (“SCCC”), is a membership organization incorporated under the laws of Texas with its principal place of business in Houston, Texas. SCCC has over 30,000 members and supporters in the United States and over 200 members in Colorado, including at least 50 in El Paso County. The purposes of SCCC include securing through education, outreach, and litigation the constitutional and statutory right to privately own, possess, and carry firearms within Colorado. SCCC brings this action on behalf of itself and its members.

And if you look at the three parties that are named as plaintiffs to the suit, one (Martha Altman from Highlands Ranch, CO) has had a CCW since 2006 and the other two since 2008. I hope this fucked up claim is thrown out on a TEXASScality.

[Pandora-11]

I find that extremely hard to believe. Unlikely? Perhaps. But statistically speaking, some unstable asshat with a CCW has likely popped off a couple rounds when he wasn't defending himself. CCW's do not screen for, nor guarantee against someone being stupid. They just make sure you haven't in the past, and license you to do the right thing if absolutely necessary.

Yes, and that's illegal.

Wrong! You can buy a long weapon at 18, a handgun at 21. You can have one in your posession legally at any age I believe, though as a minor there is probably something about parental supervision (I am not sure off hand). You have to be 21 to get a CCW.

No, I think people are acting like they don't want a bunch of college kids with guns, CCW or not. Even if a licensed, responsible 21 year old student is present with a gun, that doesn't mean some idiot won't find it in his dorm room one night and get dumb with it. That doesn't mean he won't slip up in traditional "college settings" (which happen about every other night) and cause an incident. Yeah I know the training is designed to prevent these things, but IMO the risk outweighs the remote potential benefit.

I don't think it should be illegal, however I think schools should be well within their rights to dictate policies as they see fit - and if they say no, then either respect that, or find somewhere else to be educated.

Thanks...well said.

[Speedwagon]

These 21 year olds probably live off campus. Have your gun...just dont bring it on campus around the toddlers. Colleges get to decide this...not us.

Those that are employed by the college, and attend the college, make up the college. Publicly funded colleges are supported by taxpayers as well, so we all get a say in what happens at them.

What about all those adults that are going back to school? Are they just as stupid with a CCW as you think 21 year olds are? How many 21 year olds actually live in a dorm room(and have a CCW)?

You certainly have a low opinion of society as a whole, to think that some average joe is suddenly going to swipe a gun from a legit CCW holder, and go on some rampage with it. I would guess that the occurences of such things happening are somewhere lower than 0.5%.

[PROFLYER]

I take extreame exception to who filed the claim:

Plaintiff Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, LLC (“SCCC”), is a membership organization incorporated under the laws of Texas with its principal place of business in Houston, Texas. SCCC has over 30,000 members and supporters in the United States and over 200 members in Colorado, including at least 50 in El Paso County. The purposes of SCCC include securing through education, outreach, and litigation the constitutional and statutory right to privately own, possess, and carry firearms within Colorado. SCCC brings this action on behalf of itself and its members.

And if you look at the three parties that are named as plaintiffs to the suit, one (Martha Altman from Highlands Ranch, CO) has had a CCW since 2006 and the other two since 2008. I hope this fucked up claim is thrown out on a TEXASScality.

I am a member of that and since most of us "kids" don't have the funds to hire an attorney this organization does so on our behalf. Just like the NRA lobbys with millions each year....together we stand kinda thing.

And who cares how long they've had one? You really couldn't get one until '05 anyway. My dad has had one for years, but that's because of who he is and who he donates money to. Now, we're a must issue state, it wasn't before.

[Pandora-11]

Those that are employed by the college, and attend the college, make up the college. Publicly funded colleges are supported by taxpayers as well, so we all get a say in what happens at them.

What about all those adults that are going back to school? Are they just as stupid with a CCW as you think 21 year olds are? How many 21 year olds actually live in a dorm room(and have a CCW)?

You certainly have a low opinion of society as a whole, to think that some average joe is suddenly going to swipe a gun from a legit CCW holder, and go on some rampage with it. I would guess that the occurences of such things happening are somewhere lower than 0.5%.

I guess you could say that....or I could say you are naive. I've been robbed twice in three months in the "nice" sections of town. You tell me how you think I've formed my opinion. Many of my friends live up in the Broadmoor Bluffs section of town....one was just abducted while he was shoveling snow and forced to tie up his wife and go to the ATM yesterday.
Five major robberies in Upper Skyway along with mine. No amount of insurance money can return what I've lost.
Yep....and my opinion of society is getting a whole lot lower everyday as crime is getting closer and closer to my doorstep. Might I purchase a gun?....probably....but still not on a college campus and certainly not brought to my classroom.

[Pandora-11]

.....and that from a Republican.

[McVaaahhh]

Then quit brandishing it. Again, if you took that first post as insulting, that's your fault, it wasn't meant to be.

But moving forward, I'm not saying that everyone needs to carry, perhaps our issue is your reading comprehension holdup. I've stated several times that you must be 21 to carry and I'm not for a second arguing that the laws should change. I'm simply arguing that if someone takes the necessary steps, forcing them to leave their gun in the car or at home or whatever at said establishment (school in this case) further enforces the fact that statistically mass killing happens at GUN FREE ZONES.

I didn't read your articles as there is always an exception to the rule, but overall the push has been positive and has lowered violent crime rates in the states that allow it.

This sort of ignorant thinking allows things like Virginia Tech to happen. Maybe you were a dumb ass frat 18-22 year old but that doesn't mean we all were.

I believe you insinuated that I'm a dumb-ass frat boy? Yeah, that's an insult.

Speaking to the ignorance of your first post wasn't meant to be an insult, but how you feel is your problem.

My post is ignorant because my opinion doesn't agree with yours. Yeah, another insult.

perhaps our issue is your reading comprehension holdup

Yup, another insult.


You're not helping your argument much. You're incapable of having an intelligent conversation without tossing insults and getting extremely aggitated and defensive. Just the type of person I want carrying a gun at all times.

I agree that most massacres happen at gun free zones, but I think the reason is because that's where the people are rather than the criminals know that there are no guns there.

There's also a distinction between criminals and wackos. Criminals rob liquor stores and they pick quick, easy targets. I'm thinking Virginia Tech would still happen if they allowed people to Conceal Carry on the campus. The guy that did that shooting was crazy, not cold and calculating. The dude short-circuited and tried to take as many with him as he could. If someone in one of those classrooms had a gun would it have been a smaller massacre? Quite possibly. However, the odds of a massacre happening on a given day in a college classroom are so small that I don't believe it justifies the risk of allowing students to carry guns or any other weapon into their english class.

I know I would have freaked out if I accidentally caught a glimpse of someone carrying a gun on campus. Yes I know they are supposed to be concealed, but sometimes shit happens and they are momentarily un-concealed. My first thought would NOT have been "maybe he's got a CCW". No, it would have been "What the fuck is that guy doing with a gun in my class!!!???"


I get your point. You feel better protected because you're carrying a gun, and you probably are. That's your right, and good for you man. I just hope your short(ish) fuse doesn't cause you to do something stupid with that gun someday.

What I don't agree with is the need for students to carry guns into classrooms, regardless of the age of the students. I don't believe that it's a good idea. I went to college, and no I wasn't in a frat, and I don't feel the campus atmosphere is appropriate for guns. Off-campus, well that's the real world and you get what you get. I also don't believe that classrooms are so dangerous that we need guns carried by immature students.

And 21 absolutely is immature.

[Nick_Ninja]

<snip>Publicly funded colleges are supported by taxpayers as well, so we all get a say in what happens at them.<snip>

Exactly --- and my tax dollars are not going to support a bunch of irresponsible yoyo's packing heat on campus. I'm writing my state representative, the regent that represents my district, and my state senator next encouraging them to hike tuition for those 'students' who have filed this motion

[zetaetatheta]

What was Jesus packing?

[RyNo24]

I would rather be able to carry on campus. I know that my gun may not prevent a wacko from shooting up the school, but it would give me a fair chance at defending myself against him/her. I would rather go down fighting then cowering in the back of a classroom.

The ban is obviously not doing anything to keep the wackos from bringing guns on campus, no why can't innocent law abiding people bring them on.

Also, with the "drunk stupid gun totting frat kid" issue. You do not think that a lot of kids do not have guns already? There is little security in dorms to prevent a kid from hiding a gun under his mattress already. By allowing CCW on campus isn't going to be anything different. These bans just take guns away from the innocent and do nothing from keeping them out of criminals hands.

[puckstr]

I guess you could say that....or I could say you are naive. I've been robbed twice in three months in the "nice" sections of town. You tell me how you think I've formed my opinion. Many of my friends live up in the Broadmoor Bluffs section of town....one was just abducted while he was shoveling snow and forced to tie up his wife and go to the ATM yesterday.
Five major robberies in Upper Skyway along with mine. No amount of insurance money can return what I've lost.
Yep....and my opinion of society is getting a whole lot lower everyday as crime is getting closer and closer to my doorstep. Might I purchase a gun?....probably....but still not on a college campus and certainly not brought to my classroom.

Damn..Robbed twice in 3 months? Get a gun.

What was Jesus packing?

Nails and a big piece of wood