The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

[ian22]

+1 dirkterrell

I did a bunch of really, really stupid stuff in my early 20s. I'm incredibly fortunate to have not hurt myself during that time of my life. What I've realized today is that what I used to do in the canyons is foolish...and will always be. The track is where its at! 90 bucks for a half day at HPR is a bargain, and if you have a moment...you won't be staring down the front grill of an explorer or heading for a telephone poll or the edge of a cliff (after the guardrail). There are too many people in cars texting or doing lord knows what (not paying attention) and too many spots of sand or gravel on the road for me to do that stuff anymore.

[Ghost]

I haven't ridden Deckers this year or last, and when I did prior to that it was in my typically small, close group of friends that I tend to ride with. Most are experienced, most have at least track if not race experience, and we all kinda run the same pace.

I think the "thing" with Deckers is that unlike a lot of tight canyon runs that are super twisty, technical, and have rock walls or sheer drops around every bend, Deckers seems more forgiving and open.

I think, in a sense, it lulls people into riding over their limits since it doesn't seem to be as "difficult" as most other favorite bike roads.

I think it also suckers experienced riders into thinking "this is easy" so they pay less attention than they should.

Whenever newer riders are running the tighter canyons, and they're probably struggling to keep up with the rapid transitions and so they slow down.

Whenever experienced riders are running those same tight sections, they know it's dangerous and there can be cars and elk and sand and whatever else around the next (blind) corner so they pay more attention and keep themselves in check (somewhat).

On Deckers, everyone comes railing into the sweepers thinking they're Valentino and the "track" is wide open and they overcook their entry, eat up any margin of error, and crash...

When I went on a group ride to Deckers a few years ago I kept seeing the same behavior, people riding way too fast for their experience/skill level, getting into corners too deep/too far, nearly going off the road (on into the oncoming lanes), they'd realize their mistake, back off...and then forget and ramp it back up and do it all over again...eventually, if that's the pace/way they're riding, there's only one possible outcome and it's not pretty...

As to oil in the corners, I've seen plenty of sand/gravel in some, and I have seen a few shiny slicks, but I couldn't tell you if they were intentionally there or the result of a diesel leak, runoff, car crash, whatever.

And, overall, I'm not saying I'm an expert on Deckers, or on anything else, just passing along my rather general impressions and observations...

[UglyDogRacing]

Some footage from Deckers four years ago this weekend - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdt5rdKyuiw

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

First off, in awe of Dirk's post full of great data (as usual). Great info for those willing and capable of fully realizing the implications of all he said.

Modern bikes somehow allowing a rider to break their limits "faster" than say a bike of 10 years ago, is really a just a matter of seconds. It's a nominal thing, IMO.

If anything, I think modern bikes serve more to allow unaccomplished riders to seemingly extend their limits. Often times to their detriment. Things like: ABS, linked-brake systems, traction control, back torque limiting clutches, etc, etc....

It's a bit of a double-edge sword, because that which can be a great aid to an experienced rider, can in turn provide a potentially false (or at least exaggerated) sense of competency, that can come back to eventually harm the rider, if they don't keep their true riding abilities in context. I hesitate to call them safer developments by default, because if misused/misunderstood, they can create a less demanding rider as a by-product. Flipside: If given to an already demanding rider, they can provide a true safety element.

I believe the word of the day (for this thread at least), is complacency.

I'm going to further expand on Barn's post a little, and also give nod to the post from "The Abdominal Snowman". Having also starting riding street many more years ago than I usually care to admit (serious FOG status - ok, '82), I can also vouch for the fact that today's bikes are quantum leaps forward in every performance aspect except comfort. The acceleration is a lot better, but the advances in handling, braking, stability, and tires are far more extreme. What I think this does, is mask the sensation of speed, to fool your internal "speedo" because of the effortless ease with which the bikes achieve this speed and react to it. In the old days, yeah, there were some fast bikes (the Z1, the CBR series, the GS1100 series, the later GPZ's and VFR's, etc.), but on those bikes, you really felt every mph. The bike would be moving around a little on you, there was always this feeling of instability in your seat-of-the-pants sensors, and you really would only open it up on the straights, because you knew that even though you had "great" brakes (for the day), you knew you needed more distance to slow down, and it was much heavier and harder to turn, and even less stable once in a turn. Today's bikes are so much more stable, it leads people into bigger speed on the straights (even easier because of the more hp/less weight factor), and that stability also leads them into entering corners quicker. And, regardless of these fantastic new tires we have, sand/gravel/tar snakes will still put you on your ass just as quick as in the olde days. Also, the higher cornering speeds require a much more perfect line, with far less deviation allowable in case of emergency (or poor lines) to actually make the corner. To put it simply, the older bikes scared you into respecting them at much lower speeds, the new bikes are SO tolerant of ham-fisted-ness (especially with TC and stability control etc.) that it's much less drama and less warning before you get in WAY over your head.....and then it's usually too late. And, it's far easier for a n00b to take full advantage of all this new hp that gets them INTO trouble than it is for them to take full advantage of the handling and braking (to say nothing of their lines) to get them OUT of trouble.

A perfect example of this "sensation of speed" is a trip I took in my brothers turbo Mazdasport Miata. We were running maybe 60-ish mph with the top down thru some twisties on the way from Portland to the coast, and I could have sworn we were doing 80+......until I looked at the speedo. I was amazed. I told my brother I was surprised at the speed I felt we were going, and added that if I was on the bike I'd have another 20mph in hand on that road. It was weird.

[G35CO]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

Excellent point. I've noticed that myself on occasion. Sometimes you're just not mentally/physiologically there, and that's when you need to back down and save it for a day when you're 100%. KNOWING when you're not 100% is crucial, and that typically comes with experience.

[cptschlongenheimer]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

This.
Important point that none of us should ever forget.

[spideyrdr]

A perfect example of this "sensation of speed"...

I think being lower to the ground in a Miata has something to do with it. We perceive how fast the ground is whizzing by us much more when our eyes are 3 feet from the surface versus the 6 feet away our eyes are when we are on two wheels. When I get in my wife's crappy Camry (sorry honey) I feel like I am hauling ass compared to my Jeep or my motorcycle.

</off topic>

[longrider]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

+2 I had just that experience Monday, I was heading from Morrison to Evergreen and every time I cranked up the speed I started making stupid mistakes so I just backed off and cruised.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I think being lower to the ground in a Miata has something to do with it. We perceive how fast the ground is whizzing by us much more when our eyes are 3 feet from the surface versus the 6 feet away our eyes are when we are on two wheels. When I get in my wife's crappy Camry (sorry honey) I feel like I am hauling ass compared to my Jeep or my motorcycle.

</off topic>

There is maybe some of that, but as tall as I am (6'1" - I barely fit in the Miata), I think my head was about the same height when I'm crouched down on the Gixxer, and I'm sure I'm actually closer to the ground when cranked over mid-turn. Now, if I was in a Kart or F1 car or something with my ass 3" off the ground, for sure. I think it was mostly that the Miata felt more "alive" at only 60mph. All the little inputs like the car settling on it's springs from one side to the other, moving around, whereas the Gixxer is rock-solid at whatever speed. I know that's the case comparing the old bikes to the new ones. The old 1100's had big, heavy, powerful engines (for the day), in a flexy frame with spindly forks, limp/cheap suspension, and weak brakes. So, they were always more "alive", always moving around underneath you a little. On the Gixxer, I feel acutely and more accurately what my tires are doing, the roughness of the road surface, but the bike itself feels like it's machined from billet, with only the suspension moving. On my old '83 GS1100ES, the whole bike was mvoing around, I could feel the forks flex. On my first street bike ('81 Yamahe Maxim 650) it had only a single front disk, and you could SEE the forks flex to the left when I got on the brakes, it DEFINATELY made going into corners hard on the brakes different in left turns than right turns.

[Ghost]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

Yeah, and this is especially problematic in group rides where people feel like they must keep up with the group and they must ride the full ride or else everyone will undoubtedly point and laugh and bitch about you behind your back--the truth is, if you're not feeling up to riding, don't ride.

Even if it means you have to lag in the back and/or just take off and head for home--do it. Everyone would rather you ride safely, at your pace, and if that's not enough, then just go home. It's not worth pushing yourself if you're not "fit" for the day...there'll be other days...

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Yeah, and this is especially problematic in group rides where people feel like they must keep up with the group and they must ride the full ride or else everyone will undoubtedly point and laugh and bitch about you behind your back--the truth is, if you're not feeling up to riding, don't ride.

Even if it means you have to lag in the back and/or just take off and head for home--do it. Everyone would rather you ride safely, at your pace, and if that's not enough, then just go home. It's not worth pushing yourself if you're not "fit" for the day...there'll be other days...

Exactly why that is the first and foremost thing that should be impressed upon a n00b.

[Bueller]

A quote that was on my FB feed today.

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward." -- Vernon Law

[Graphite675]

... Or the riders that are used to pushing it on the track get back on the street and lower their guard because they're not pushing as hard as they are on the track

I'm going to disagree with this also. Racing and riding the track has made me realize even more that the road is not the place to push your limits or work on technique.
I still ride the road on occasion but when I do it's at a mellow pace. No matter how well you may know a particular route the fact is on public roads it's ever changing. That's where the track is such a treat, it's always the same and predictable. No cars, no oil, no guard rails, no unexpected road repair.

I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.

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[dirkterrell]

A quote that was on my FB feed today.

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward." -- Vernon Law

Awesome.

And for those of you who interpreted Christi's "can't run from the Reaper" comment as meaning there's nothing we can do, I didn't read it that way. I read it more along the lines of my statement that you can't make the risk in riding zero (except in the uninteresting case of not riding at all). There are situations that can come up that you can't predict or avoid but fortunately they are very rare.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

A quote that was on my FB feed today.

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward." -- Vernon Law

Excellent quote, I'll remember that. Notice it's a "she".

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.

Dunno if I agree with this as a blanket statement, I've seen some people try and translate that ballz-out speed from the track to the street, thinking that automatically makes them a better street rider - not so at all.

And I'll have to add to the second statement that the reverse is true - the track can't compare to the street. Especially in terms of scenery, the extreme diversity of corners and road conditions (sand/gravel, moisture, etc.), "reading" a new road for the right line and where the corners go. In most ways, I'd say the street is far, far more difficult, and certainly less forgiving. Also, that track riding helps give you skills for lines, braking, lean, and such, but the street is so much more complex that the best experience for building your street skills is.....riding the street.....and not at track speeds.

[OUTLAWD]

I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.

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I actually agree with this. I started riding slower in most cases on the street, but even if I pick up the pace, I am still only riding at a fraction of my ability or comfort level. I am by no means a fast person on the track, but on the street, I ride at ~40% of comfort level, only exceeding that on roads I know well, but still not going over ~60%...

when I was new to this twisty stuff a whopping 3 years ago, I was riding the same pace on the street and the track, and both were slow as shit in hindsight, but I was riding closer to my limit, but alot slower than I currently ride

[CaptGoodvibes]

Maybe I don't have enough experience to post in this thread but I'm not a n00b either. Two points I'd like to add and then I'll fade back to the audience again...

Choose your battles. I don't ride fast all the time. I am very mellow in town and around perceived danger be it animals hidden by thick vegetation close to the road, driveways, or anything else that alerts or spooks my gut. I don't have an ego when it comes to my safety. Again, choose your battles is meant to imply that riding fast isn't always necessary. Federal Blvd is a good example.

The comment about being off somehow and maybe it's not a good day to ride or perhaps going home is the best thing to do is right on. I let my shifts be my guide. If I'm shifting like a retard, I head for home. It's a clear indication to me that things are going downhill and other control issues are right around the corner... so to speak. But I have specific health issues that cause me to be starkly aware of this. Others might not so maybe pick something as a guideline as to fatigue limits that are outside of your own safety.

/ramble

Thanks for all the insight in this thread and others! Mid-level guys like me need to be reminded we have much to learn.

[bornwildnfree]

Awesome.

And for those of you who interpreted Christi's "can't run from the Reaper" comment as meaning there's nothing we can do, I didn't read it that way. I read it more along the lines of my statement that you can't make the risk in riding zero (except in the uninteresting case of not riding at all). There are situations that can come up that you can't predict or avoid but fortunately they are very rare.

That's exactly what I meant. Thanks for putting it way better than I could :-).

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

All that CAN be done to mitigate risk SHOULD be done (mental and physical health/state, gear, street experience, riders class, trackdays), but the only way to eliminate it entirely is to not ride.....and that simply isn't an option, at least for me. The question is simply, what level of risk are you willing to and SHOULD you take? If the road is more hazardous/dirty and/or you're not feeling right, dial it down. The more experience you have the better you are at determining those factors and how much you should slow. It's far better to ride slower at 40% of your max pace than slightly faster at 80% of your max pace.

For instance, I'm feeling pretty sick now with a bad sinus infection/cold, and I'm not even feeling up to riding from a strength/balance/fatigue standpoint right now. IF I make it out this weekend, it'll be for a very mild putt around town or MAYBE in the mtn's, but I'll have it dialed way back because I don't feel right (dizzy/weak).

[Graphite675]

And I'll have to add to the second statement that the reverse is true - the track can't compare to the street. Especially in terms of scenery, the extreme diversity of corners and road conditions (sand/gravel, moisture, etc.), "reading" a new road for the right line and where the corners go. In most ways, I'd say the street is far, far more difficult, and certainly less forgiving. Also, that track riding helps give you skills for lines, braking, lean, and such, but the street is so much more complex that the best experience for building your street skills is.....riding the street.....and not at track speeds.

I agree the scenery is beautiful and that's why I still ride the road on occasion. With that said the road (IMO) is not a race track and not a place to be learning "technique", "new lines", "dragging knee", etc. Yes I have done it on occasion myself but have less and less desire to do so anymore. (maybe old age? :-) It's just not safe and that's the bottom line. One wrong move and you could be face to face with oncoming traffic. Too many variables, too deadly. It's all personal choice though. I prefer to sit back and enjoy the ride and scenery at a mellower pace on the road now days.

[GixxerCarrie]

Wow..Guys...Super impressed with all of you! I knew we all could could come together and have a pretty easy going discussion. Its not just this Canyon, Its all Canyons. Even the street. (If I could only go to posts from Bueller where it wasn't always about the track).(they disappeared in the deep black hole).

I truly appreciate all your responses and opinions here. Many I know who posted I have a great respect for and this is exactly what I was looking for. Cause reading just this one thread could change someones life.

It just really bothered me that I saw another RIP rider. Those who don't take the advantage of some of the teachings as Dirk suggested(I'm guilty of this one too), at least can gain from your insights you have written above.

Thank you..its why I still stick around this joint!

[OUTLAWD]

I think we see more incidents on that particular route, because it is travelled by so many. A few weeks ago, I rounded a corner up east of FoCo to find a guy motionless in the middle of the road, and his bike over the ledge. The road in question is way more technical that Deckers, but off the radar for many denver-ites, so its less travelled.

and we are all glad that you do stick around Carrie