Engine Temp & Cooling (Was "Wetter Water")

[The GECCO]

WRONG

Are you just making this bullshit up off the top of your head?

http://www.pa.msu.edu/sciencet/ask_st/081094.html

Sorry, Chris, but I'm not wrong. Surface tension = cohesion. They say lower adhesion, I say raise surface tension, these are two ways of saying the same thing.

In that article they talk about wax filling in the imperfections of the paint (making the surface smoother, and a smoother surface has less surface area to present). A smooth surface always has a higher surface tension than a rough one. Was I technically wrong by saying that the PAINT is beading the water rather than the microscopic layer of chemicals that are making the surface smoother? Perhaps....wow, ya got me there

They also talk about wax being hydrophobic. This was true many years ago when car wax actually WAS wax, or at least had wax/parafin in it. Those products went the way of the Dodo a while back because that stuff built up over time and clouded finishes. We still call it car wax, but these days there are much more advanced chemicals in use, but they all pretty much do the same thing - they polish down and/or fill in surface imperfections in the paint to raise the surface tension (by lowering the surface area), which blocks out contaminants (like water)

Water Wetter lowers the cohesion, that's what a surfactant DOES, by definition.

Go back to school and try again. Or at least find an article that wasn't written over decade ago.

[Chris]

Well i was not really trying to be an ass so i can agree to disagree.

I don't think the phrase "surface tension" should be used at all, it is at best confusing.

[pf702]

anyone not already bored by this post and it's participants trying to prove how smart they are(Napoleonic complex maybe)...can read more about Surfactants below:

Etymology
The term surfactant is a blend of "surface active agent". Surfactants are usually organic compounds that are amphiphilic, meaning they contain both hydrophobic groups (their "tails") and hydrophilic groups (their "heads"). Therefore, they are soluble in both organic solvents and water. The term surfactant was coined by Antara Products in 1950.
In Index Medicus and the United States National Library of Medicine, "surfactant" is reserved for the meaning pulmonary surfactant (see "alveoli" link below). For the more general meaning, "surface active agent" is the heading.
The most common, biological example of surfactant is that coating the surfaces of the Alveoli, the small air sacs of the lungs that serve as the site of gas exchange.

Operation and effects


A micelle - the lipophilic ends of the surfactant molecules dissolve in the oil, while the hydrophilic charged ends remain outside, shielding the rest of the hydrophobic micelle


Surfactants reduce the surface tension of water by adsorbing at the liquid-gas interface. They also reduce the interfacial tension between oil and water by adsorbing at the liquid-liquid interface. Many surfactants can also assemble in the bulk solution into aggregates. Some of these aggregates are known as micelles. The concentration at which surfactants begin to form micelles is known as the critical micelle concentration or CMC. When micelles form in water, their tails form a core that can encapsulate an oil droplet, and their (ionic/polar) heads form an outer shell that maintains favorable contact with water. When surfactants assemble in oil, the aggregate is referred to as a reverse micelle. In a reverse micelle, the heads are in the core and the tails maintain favorable contact with oil.
Surfactants are also often classified into four primary groups; anionic, cationic, non-ionic, and zwitterionic (dual charge).
Thermodynamics of the surfactant systems are of great importance, theoretically and practically. This is because surfactant systems represent systems between ordered and disordered states of matter. Surfactant solutions may contain an ordered phase (micelles) and a disordered phase (free surfactant molecules and/or ions in the solution).
Ordinary washing up (dishwashing) detergent, for example, will promote water penetration in soil, but the effect would only last a few days (although many standard laundry detergent powders contain levels of chemicals such as sodium and boron, which can be damaging to plants, so these should not be applied to soils). Commercial soil wetting agents will continue to work for a considerable period, but they will eventually be degraded by soil micro-organisms. Some can, however, interfere with the life-cycles of some aquatic organisms, so care should be taken to prevent run-off of these products into streams, and excess product should not be washed down gutters.

[Bassil Duwaik]

ah you killed it pf702. it sounded much cooler when gecco said it

[James]

Pressure can't be the only thing that affects boiling temperature. After all, that's why there are different DOT approved brake fluids. Each one has a different boiling point, and you aren't changing any pressure there.

[goldman812]

i always use water wetter in all my race bikes

[InSuPress]

I just swapped the coolant out on my bike, 50/50 mix with 1/3 of a bottle of water wetter and i can say bike is running cooler, no longer at lights are my legs getting hot. they used to cook me at all lights. Haven't had that happen at all.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Excellent info here, but I will disagree that the soap itself does not clean. Yes, it is a surfactant, allowing the water to carry away the dirt better, but most soaps still break down the contaminants (skin oils, etc.), so it really does help clean. Don't believe me? Get real dirty, and try using car wax in the shower instead of soap. Errrr, or maybe not. THAT leaves a bad mental image.

[mdub]

car wax

i did noticed in the past when i wax over smudge/dirt that it does come right off. And surprisingly enuff it somehows prevents the dirt to scuff the plastic.

[tecknojoe]

I just swapped the coolant out on my bike, 50/50 mix with 1/3 of a bottle of water wetter and i can say bike is running cooler, no longer at lights are my legs getting hot. they used to cook me at all lights. Haven't had that happen at all.

I hope your garage is heated. otherwise, run coolant in the winter

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Pressure can't be the only thing that affects boiling temperature. After all, that's why there are different DOT approved brake fluids. Each one has a different boiling point, and you aren't changing any pressure there.

Exactly. Salinity, mineral content, lubricant, and other factors do affect the boiling pointas WELL as the pressure, though perhaps to a very minor degree. And yes, I know you need to use distilled water to eliminate that variable.

Yeah, wax DOES help get contaminates off the paint, but soap is better and doesn't leave the residue.

[GuitarX]

Wow, Gecco for the best post of the year. The forum just got a bit more readable again.

Another product to try instead of Water Wetter is Mocool by Motul. The MV F4 is infamous for running hot. Steve at Mad Moto recommended this stuff along with a few of the normal MV forum fixes and it really helped. I'm using a mixture of this along with normal anti-freeze so I still have the protection.

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com...l-Coolant.aspx

[UglyDogRacing]

Wow, Gecco for the best post of the year. The forum just got a bit more readable again.

Which year? His first post was in this thread was 2004 and his 2nd was in 2007.

[OUTLAWD]

I hope your garage is heated. otherwise, run coolant in the winter

50/50 is good to ~-34F IIRC


and this

Which year? His first post was in this thread was 2004 and his 2nd was in 2007.

[tecknojoe]

I was under the impression that water wetter is not suitable at low temps. is that wrong?

[Bueller]

50% water w/water wetter and 50% anti freeze is what he is referring to.

[tecknojoe]

o, i thought he was talking 50% wetter and 50% water.

[GuitarX]

Which year? His first post was in this thread was 2004 and his 2nd was in 2007.

...thus explaining my shock that a literate, intelligent, knowledgeable, thoughtful, helpful post was actually on the forum in late 2011.

Thanks for clarifying Jim! LOL

[mathman1000]

WRONG

Are you just making this bullshit up off the top of your head?

http://www.pa.msu.edu/sciencet/ask_st/081094.html

You're kidding right? If you read the article it says the same thing; that is if you can understand what Glen wrote.

[WolFeYeZ]

You're kidding right? If you read the article it says the same thing; that is if you can understand what Glen wrote.

You do know you are arguing with an over 4 year old post, right?

[One-ops]

6 years seems long enough for the next post on this one! LOL
No talk of corrosive properties. I was told and read a bit that purple ice has more then water wetter. After years of using water wetter the cooling system looks a bit nasty. So I'm trying it out and no worries of distilled water. Although after reading mixing directions water wetter didn't need it either. Swore it did years ago. Maybe that was some of my problem with corrosion?

[The Black Knight]

6 years seems long enough for the next post on this one! LOL
No talk of corrosive properties. I was told and read a bit that purple ice has more then water wetter. After years of using water wetter the cooling system looks a bit nasty. So I'm trying it out and no worries of distilled water. Although after reading mixing directions water wetter didn't need it either. Swore it did years ago. Maybe that was some of my problem with corrosion?

nothing like waking up a zombie thread..

[One-ops]

Don't be alarmed.
The stale deadness will resume

[The Black Knight]

Don't be alarmed.
The stale deadness will resume

Oh no, I think it's funny man. This thread is informative. I do get a kick out of waking up a zombie thread. On one of the guitar forums I'm on, some guys will revive stuff that's super old just for fun. Pisses everyone off. I think it's great, and the only way to troll.