Hmmm, pretty sure that was inaccurate, if for no other reason than I don't *think* the cars ever actually passed the scene of the incident. The main pack was in the tri-oval under pace car and Montoya was entering T3 trying to catch up to the pack when he lost it. By the time the pack got to the back straight the fire was raging and the pace car stopped the field.Originally Posted by Mother Goose
The GECCO
You begin your riding career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
Hey Glenn, did you already call and cancel that jet dryer we ordered?
No doubt about the future, No regrets about the past!
Watched the whole race and my understanding from what I saw and the live coverage was that the photo and post was done during the red flag.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
Cancel it? Of course not, but I did call and tell them to add the optional extra huge fuel tank! We can paint the big target on it ourselves.
The GECCO
You begin your riding career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
I would like to start the rumor that NASCAR will now be requiring safety truck drivers to wear fire suits and the Hans device.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
Doesn't NASCAR already require safety truck drivers to wear fire suits? I don't know honestly, but many crews at pro tracks I've seen are in suits, sometimes even full bunker gear.
Asshole Nazi devil moderator out to get each and every one of you
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous
than sincere ignorance
and conscientious stupidity.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
disce quasi semper victurus vive quasi cras moriturus
The return of MRA #321! Sponsored by Western Ambulance, Chicane Trackdays, and a very patient wife...
Yup, it seems they're always in helmets and fire suits.
The GECCO
You begin your riding career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
There isn't an F1 track in existence that has ever had a turn banked anywhere NEAR the 33 degrees at Daytona. I disagree that F1 would have run Indy in the rain, but since it's never happened and I can't find any type of a written rain policy anywhere on the net I guess we'll just have to disagreeI will say this, though:
F1 at Indy: Lap Record = 130.1 mph average. Top Speed = 207 mph
NASCAR Daytona: Lap Record = 210.3 AVERAGE
Do you really not see a difference?
You've obviously never driven on a high banked oval because your statement that "you don't even have to turn" is just plain wrong, Frank. It actually takes a rather high amount of force to turn the car. Enough that if the power steering pump fails, they can't continue. If you look at the in-car shots, they sit close enough that their elbows actually touch the steering wheel, which helps them get enough leverage to turn the car.
Inertial force increases exponentially with speed and weight. An F1 car weighs (I think) in the neighborhood of 1100 pounds. A Cup car weighs 3400 pounds. If you think it doesn't take an enormous amount of energy to change the trajectory of a 3400 lb car going over 200mph....well, I just don't know what to say! LoL Maybe Dirk can put some numbers to it.
Few things,
NASCAR brickyard 400: 1 Lap record = 155.9 mph (runs the oval)
Indy 500: 1 Lap record = 236.1 mph (runs the oval)
US Grand Prix @ Indy 1 Lap record = 133.2 mph (ran the infield before modification)
Moto GP @ Indy 1 Lap record = 94.538 mph (runs the infield)
I think it would be more appropriate to compare the Indy 500 and the Brickyard 400, as they run the exact same track configuration. F1 would probably slot in close to Indy cars if they ran the oval.
On Frank's point, I believe he's referring to the fact that for a given banking and radius, a specific speed through the corner will result in a situation where no lateral friction between the tires and road is necessary to successfully turn.
Besides, it's just good fun to beat on NASCRAP!There isn't an F1 track in existence that has ever had a turn banked anywhere NEAR the 33 degrees at Daytona.
Wrong. The old Monza track was very steeply banked (30deg) and FAR deadlier:
http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009...a-banking.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodromo_Nazionale_Monza
I disagree that F1 would have run Indy in the rain, but since it's never happened and I can't find any type of a written rain policy anywhere on the net I guess we'll just have to disagree
F1 at Indy: Lap Record = 130.1 mph average. Top Speed = 207 mph
NASCAR Daytona: Lap Record = 210.3 AVERAGE
The 2012 NASCRAP qualifying speed was only 194.738. F1 doesn't run the full Indy lap because it would be too dangerous, but the Indycar speed record is 233.100mph by Tony Stewart in '96. Even with the heavy downforce they run (though trimmed out on longer tracks), F1 cars are good for 230-ish mph. I think they would have run if the rain wasn't torrential, but we'll never see. As was posted, if there's any rain at all, NASCRAP calls it, whereas F1 and the other series just run rain tires.
Do you really not see a difference?
I think they could run, like I said, the throttle works both ways. I've seen F1 cars run in conditions unfit for boats!
You've obviously never driven on a high banked oval because your statement that "you don't even have to turn" is just plain wrong, Frank. It actually takes a rather high amount of force to turn the car. Enough that if the power steering pump fails, they can't continue. If you look at the in-car shots, they sit close enough that their elbows actually touch the steering wheel, which helps them get enough leverage to turn the car.
I never have run a banked track in a car, and neither have most people, but I had a friend who raced stockers, so I'm more familiar than you'd think. The banking is such that, at a certain speed, and with the stagger that they run, the car is neutral, rewuiring almost zero turn-in. On the freeways here, the banking is designed such that the car should require zero turn-in at 75mph if I remember right. Wicky could probably get that info easily.
Inertial force increases exponentially with speed and weight. An F1 car weighs (I think) in the neighborhood of 1100 pounds. A Cup car weighs 3400 pounds. If you think it doesn't take an enormous amount of energy to change the trajectory of a 3400 lb car going over 200mph....well, I just don't know what to say! LoL Maybe Dirk can put some numbers to it.
I know it takes effort, but as I said, the banking and the stagger help a LOT with that. F1 cars can't set up stagger or take advantage of banking like that, since they also go right.(Don't think they don't say worse about us!)
--------------------------------------------------
"...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
-Theodore Roosevelt 1907
--------------------------------------------------
Blu/Wht '01 Gixxer 1K, '91 KX500
--------------------------------------------------
Tokin' SortaTalian
(Pronounced: Kind-A-Dago)
[QUOTE=Penadam;647575]Few things,
NASCAR brickyard 400: 1 Lap record = 155.9 mph (runs the oval)
Indy 500: 1 Lap record = 236.1 mph (runs the oval)
US Grand Prix @ Indy 1 Lap record = 133.2 mph (ran the infield before modification)
Moto GP @ Indy 1 Lap record = 94.538 mph (runs the infield)
I think it would be more appropriate to compare the Indy 500 and the Brickyard 400, as they run the exact same track configuration. F1 would probably slot in close to Indy cars if they ran the oval.
On Frank's point, I believe he's referring to the fact that for a given banking and radius, a specific speed through the corner will result in a situation where no lateral friction between the tires and road is necessary to successfully turn.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
--------------------------------------------------
"...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
-Theodore Roosevelt 1907
--------------------------------------------------
Blu/Wht '01 Gixxer 1K, '91 KX500
--------------------------------------------------
Tokin' SortaTalian
(Pronounced: Kind-A-Dago)
Fair enough. And the last time they ran the Indy 500 in the rain was when? Google "Indianapolis 500 rain delay" for the answer.
The people were comparing NASCAR to various forms of road racing, I was simply offering an additional view of that same comparison.
The GECCO
You begin your riding career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
How many nascar drivers does it take to start a jet fuel fire?
Just Juan.
Do not put off living the life you dream of. Next year may never come. If we are always waiting for something to change...
Retirement, the kids to leave home, the weather or the economy, that's not living. That's waiting!
Waiting will only leaves us with unrealized dreams and empty wishes.
Well THAT makes it ok then. Same logic you use while parenting?Besides, it's just good fun to beat on NASCRAP!
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
The guy driving that truck was in jeans and a long sleeve shirt from what I saw. His passenger, the guy who gets out of the truck to pick up debris etc, was wearing gear.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
I have been laughing out really loud reading this thread. Direct some of that energy towards supporting our local team; Furniture Row Racing #78 .
Fair enough, I didn't know about that track....but maybe that's because F1 hasn't raced there since 1961, so is it really a relevant argument?
"Only" 194 mph? Sorry, that just made me giggle a little. I see your point about that number versus the 210, but I was just comparing overall lap records to overall lap records in an effort to be apples to apples as much as possible.The 2012 NASCRAP qualifying speed was only 194.738.
My point is this - it's not fair to say NASCAR should run in the rain because F1 does, or MOTOGP does, or whatever, because those sports have much lower average speeds.
Penadam argues that Indy cars have a much higher average speed on the oval at Indianapolis. Great, but Indy cars don't run on the oval in the rain, so that argument either isn't relevant or supports NASCAR not running in the rain.
Frank says they just gotta slow down. Which they would, every vehicle races slower in the rain. F1, MOTOGP, etc all run, what, 10% slower in the rain? (I'm seriously asking because I'm too burned out to do the research). The point remains the same, if NASCAR cars ran 10% slower in the rain, they'd still have an average speed much higher than F1 cars do in the rain. Hell, at 10% slower their average speeds in the rain would still be higher than what F1 and MOTOGP do on dry pavement.....with walls closer than most any F1/MOTOGP track. Yup, those NASCAR guys must be pussies.
The GECCO
You begin your riding career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
There's the debate right now whether Indy should race on an oval AT ALL - even in the dry. After the guy was killed last year, the drivers have said that the pack racing on a oval is too dangerous in those cars.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
Fair enough, I didn't know about that track....but maybe that's because F1 hasn't raced there since 1961, so is it really a relevant argument?
You didn't know about monza? Sheesh.....kids these days.....
"Only" 194 mph? Sorry, that just made me giggle a little. I see your point about that number versus the 210, but I was just comparing overall lap records to overall lap records in an effort to be apples to apples as much as possible.
My point is this - it's not fair to say NASCAR should run in the rain because F1 does, or MOTOGP does, or whatever, because those sports have much lower average speeds.
Penadam argues that Indy cars have a much higher average speed on the oval at Indianapolis. Great, but Indy cars don't run on the oval in the rain, so that argument either isn't relevant or supports NASCAR not running in the rain.
Frank says they just gotta slow down. Which they would, every vehicle races slower in the rain. F1, MOTOGP, etc all run, what, 10% slower in the rain? (I'm seriously asking because I'm too burned out to do the research). The point remains the same, if NASCAR cars ran 10% slower in the rain, they'd still have an average speed much higher than F1 cars do in the rain. Hell, at 10% slower their average speeds in the rain would still be higher than what F1 and MOTOGP do on dry pavement.....with walls closer than most any F1/MOTOGP track. Yup, those NASCAR guys must be pussies.
I really think they could do it, if they tried. Like I said, the banking helps turn the car AND shed water. The cars don't change direction or accelerate and stop as violently as F1 or other road race cars do. Though the AVERAGE F1 speed isn't as high as the NASCRAP cars, the top speed isn't too far off. If the F1 cars ran on an ovel, I think you'd see higher speeds, much like the 24mph average advantage Indycars had over the stockers. Though, that's a lottle apples/oranges as Indy is a different track.
The point is, they don't even try.
--------------------------------------------------
"...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
-Theodore Roosevelt 1907
--------------------------------------------------
Blu/Wht '01 Gixxer 1K, '91 KX500
--------------------------------------------------
Tokin' SortaTalian
(Pronounced: Kind-A-Dago)
You're ignoring the safety issues on pit road
AND
The difficult time the cars have coming on and off the banking as well as the transition to the apron. Waltrip wrecked his car in the Bud Shootout this week trying to qualify for the 500 by hitting the banking too soon and spinning his car into the outside wall - on dry pavement.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
sorry, it was the duel.
kinda bonehead maneuver - but illustrates that it's not just about riding around on the banking.
And his brother doing the commentating is making excuses for him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEVhfbaiGUs
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
Michael is okay but DW is just annoying to me. And what's not to like about Kyle Busch losing? And yes, we have a local team in Furniture Row and Regan Smith. He was in the hunt early but finished 24th due to the crash on lap 188.
John
KTM Duke 690
They still race at Monza every year (usually in September) but haven't run F1 on the old oval section since 1961, sports cars last ran on it in 1969.
It is the 1.5 mile Nascar ovals that are the problem, the flatter oval of Indy doesn't create the same kind of racing and even the longer ovals like Michigan never seemed to have the problems the 1.5 mile Nascar ovals like Las Vegas and Texas have. They shouldn't run on those type of ovals. If I was in charge of IndyCar I wouldn't want to give the France family any of races on the tracks they own. I think they should go back to more of the mix of tracks they had in the CART days.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
