health care thread

[Ph03niX]

I hate to say it, but this is another reason healthcare is so high in this country; obesity. The citizens are to blame too....



#1 Killer in America;

• Heart disease: 611,105
• http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lead...s-of-death.htm

Daaaaang I didnt know that. Where'd you get this graph?

[#1Townie]

I hate to say it, but this is another reason healthcare is so high in this country; obesity. The citizens are to blame too....



#1 Killer in America;

• Heart disease: 611,105
• http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lead...s-of-death.htm

I would say cancer probably has heart disease beat. Well money wise anyways. Heart disease really doesn't kill much more people than cancer.

[bulldog]

I would say cancer probably has heart disease beat. Well money wise anyways. Heart disease really doesn't kill much more people than cancer.

Not according to stats; maybe you missed the link I posted
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lead...s-of-death.htm

Per the CDC:
Number of deaths for leading causes of death

• Heart disease: 611,105
• Cancer: 584,881
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
• Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978
• Alzheimer's disease: 84,767
• Diabetes: 75,578
• Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
• Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
• Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149

But you can even argue cancer is increased by obesity; especially in men. Cancer loves estrogen so that is why breast cancer is one of the top cancers people get (yes men get breast cancer). In men high estrogen increases the chances of cancer by 70%!

Obesity is associated with increased risks of the following cancer types, and possibly others as well:

• Esophagus
• Pancreas
• Colon and rectum
• Breast (after menopause)
• Endometrium (lining of the uterus)
• Kidney
• Thyroid
• Gallbladder

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...t/Risk/obesity

I think we all know obesity is a major problem in this country and it could be why our healthcare is higher

[#1Townie]

Please go reread what I posted. I said money wise. As in treatment. As in the cost of dealing with such things.

And you truly can't link cancer to any one thing. Plenty of athletes in top notch shape have goten it. None smokers with lung cancer. Smokers who have lived their entire lives never getting cancer.

Honestly man you can't link anything together. If you could we would beat it by now.

[bulldog]

Please go reread what I posted. I said money wise. As in treatment. As in the cost of dealing with such things.

And you truly can't link cancer to any one thing. Plenty of athletes in top notch shape have goten it. None smokers with lung cancer. Smokers who have lived their entire lives never getting cancer.

Honestly man you can't link anything together. If you could we would beat it by now.

It's been proven man. This is no conspiracy theory as the National Cancer Society clearly even states it:

• Fat tissue produces excess amounts of estrogen, high levels of which have been associated with the risk of breast, endometrial, and some other cancers.
• Obese people often have increased levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) in their blood (a condition known as hyperinsulinemia or insulin resistance), which may promote the development of certain tumors.
• Fat cells produce hormones, called adipokines, that may stimulate or inhibit cell growth. For example, leptin, which is more abundant in obese people, seems to promote cell proliferation, whereas adiponectin, which is less abundant in obese people, may have antiproliferative effects.
• Fat cells may also have direct and indirect effects on other tumor growth regulators, including mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) and AMP-activated protein kinase.
• Obese people often have chronic low-level, or “subacute,” inflammation, which has been associated with increased cancer risk.

But ok, here we go:



The ten events or conditions that are most commonly expensive are as follows. These are average costs, so many patients even with these conditions will not reach the $100,000 per year mark:
1. HIV $25,000
2. Cancer $49,000
3. Transplant $51,00
4. Stroke $61,000
5 Hemophilia $62,000
6. Heart Attack including Cardiac Revascularization (Angioplasty with or without Stent) $72,000
7. Coronary Artery Disease $75,000
8. Neonate (premature baby) with extreme problems $101,000
9. End-Stage Renal Disease $173,000
10. Respiratory Failure on Ventilator $314,000

I was surprised how low cancer was on the list. The report provides a bit more detail. If you have cancer that’s not being intensively treated (no chemotherapy, no surgery) it costs only $14,000 a year. This would apply to 40% of total cancer patients. However, cancer patients who receive surgery or chemotherapy (15% of the total) cost $123,000 on average. It wasn’t clear how the other 35% are classified.

The most expensive condition, respiratory failure on a ventilator, is another way of describing the intensive care that patients receive at the end of life for a variety of conditions. Kidney failure may be from diabetes or hypertension, both of which could have been preventable.

[~Barn~]

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[#1Townie]

It's been proven man. This is no conspiracy theory as the National Cancer Society clearly even states it:

• Fat tissue produces excess amounts of estrogen, high levels of which have been associated with the risk of breast, endometrial, and some other cancers.
• Obese people often have increased levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) in their blood (a condition known as hyperinsulinemia or insulin resistance), which may promote the development of certain tumors.
• Fat cells produce hormones, called adipokines, that may stimulate or inhibit cell growth. For example, leptin, which is more abundant in obese people, seems to promote cell proliferation, whereas adiponectin, which is less abundant in obese people, may have antiproliferative effects.
• Fat cells may also have direct and indirect effects on other tumor growth regulators, including mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) and AMP-activated protein kinase.
• Obese people often have chronic low-level, or “subacute,” inflammation, which has been associated with increased cancer risk.

But ok, here we go:



The ten events or conditions that are most commonly expensive are as follows. These are average costs, so many patients even with these conditions will not reach the $100,000 per year mark:
1. HIV $25,000
2. Cancer $49,000
3. Transplant $51,00
4. Stroke $61,000
5 Hemophilia $62,000
6. Heart Attack including Cardiac Revascularization (Angioplasty with or without Stent) $72,000
7. Coronary Artery Disease $75,000
8. Neonate (premature baby) with extreme problems $101,000
9. End-Stage Renal Disease $173,000
10. Respiratory Failure on Ventilator $314,000

I was surprised how low cancer was on the list. The report provides a bit more detail. If you have cancer that’s not being intensively treated (no chemotherapy, no surgery) it costs only $14,000 a year. This would apply to 40% of total cancer patients. However, cancer patients who receive surgery or chemotherapy (15% of the total) cost $123,000 on average. It wasn’t clear how the other 35% are classified.

The most expensive condition, respiratory failure on a ventilator, is another way of describing the intensive care that patients receive at the end of life for a variety of conditions. Kidney failure may be from diabetes or hypertension, both of which could have been preventable.

And where does it show that if you live a perfect healthy life you want get cancer or any other disease?

[bulldog]

And where does it show that if you live a perfect healthy life you want get cancer or any other disease?

Huh??? The point was obesity has a huge effect on increase of cancer. You stated it was not, but I have proven it is a fact! it is also common sense that a healthy lifestyle is better for your health in general.

Not to mention I proved your "money wise" wrong about cancer too. Just look at the one associated with cardiovascular and it is quite clear cancer doesn't cost all that much. Rarely do cancer patients go into ICU, but nearly anyone with a major heart attack does and that is where the huge number increases. Open heart surgery....we are talking in the 100's of thousands just for the surgery!

Bottom line is citizens complain, but do they really take care of themselves as much as they can. And when they didn't they cry their healthcare is so high, but in reality a lot of that was done to themselves...yet all this blame on healthcare and Obama Just funny to me people don't take responsibility for their actions. Alcoholic or drug addict; same thing...exactly why they are not eligible for organ transplants (takes three years to show you are clean before they even put you on list; last on list)

[~Barn~]

I love how you so casually advocate both sides of the story Townie, and don't even realize you're doing it.

On one hand you'll tell us about how you're in good health, relatively young, don't use doctors or get sick that often, don't get flu shots, live basically a healthy life, etc. You use these examples for how insurance is not for you, and you shouldn't be required to have it by virtue of free will.

And then on the other hand you'll just as easily cite how you can be in good health, not need doctors, live a basically healthy life, be young and still ultimately contract a life altering disease or condition; something like cancer for instance. And you honestly want us to believe that if this does in fact happen to you (see points 1. and 2.) that you will just suck it up and it will be your choice to say "fuck it, this is the hand I was dealt", and not even consider getting treatment or having a procedure that might cure you. Or even the possibility of being administered a medicine that might improve your quality of life.

Such bullshit. I don't buy it one bit.

[bulldog]

Not to mention it is not always choice. For example you are driving to work today and you wreck but are knocked unconscious. EMT's do not stop to see if you have insurance or even care; their job is to save your life. So you wake up hours later already in the hospital and your bill has already started. Just like this you are now part of this problem because with no health insurance they will give YOU the entire bill and they do not care. I believe a lot of ACA is to help stop this because a $100k bill can usually ruin any family.....happens everyday. With some insurance at least this situation could be much better.

[~Barn~]

I'm sure he has his Do Not Resuscitate wishes plainly visible in his wallet or on a med-bracelet.

[TFOGGuys]

Not to mention it is not always choice. For example you are driving to work today and you wreck but are knocked unconscious. EMT's do not stop to see if you have insurance or even care; their job is to save your life. So you wake up hours later already in the hospital and your bill has already started. Just like this you are now part of this problem because with no health insurance they will give YOU the entire bill and they do not care. I believe a lot of ACA is to help stop this because a $100k bill can usually ruin any family.....happens everyday. With some insurance at least this situation could be much better.

When I had my crash, they billed over $53K in the first hour. Total ended up being about $112K.

Where things get weird is when you see what the insurance company paid vs. what was billed initially. Total payout by the insurance companies(med pay on my bike insurance +Cigna health insurance) was about $41K. The health industry inflates their costs outrageously so that when they have an indigent patient they can write off a much higher amount for tax purposes. Realistically, anyone who pays the face value of their health care bill without negotiation is an idiot. Having helped others in this regard, I will state categorically that most hospitals will discount the bill 40-60% without batting an eye, just because someone squawks.

[#1Townie]

Ohhhh you guys have a response coming. Don't worry.

[~Barn~]

Dear Editor.

What's the statute of limitations on promised responses? CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION!

[#1Townie]

Dear Editor.

What's the statute of limitations on promised responses? CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION!

Oh I'm sorry barn. I've had to work today. I don't have time to write the million long page response to answer both of you.

But you won't like what I have to say anyways so you may as well not come back in here.

[Ezzzzy1]

Wait for it....

[The Black Knight]

Thing I like about Townie is he's a straight shooter. He says what's on his mind and you always know where you stand with him.

I'm with you Townie on Obamacare. I hate it and think it's a waste of time. I see it primarily from the government side as well(I work for local government). It has severely impacted our ability to keep temp/hourly/seasonal employees around because of the 1500 hour rule.

Only thing Obamacare has done, is made America a nation of "part time" job workers. Hence why people are now scrambling to secure that 2nd or 3rd job just to make ends meet. Companies are now forced to let them go just before the 1500 hour deadline in order to keep their healthcare costs down for their "permanent/full time" employees.

[Nolan]

I call bullshit on all of it. Business isn't forced to do shit. They now have an excuse on why they will never hire you full time because of the cost of health-care. So every six months go ahead and fire you. Wait 30 days and why not try again? (I don't know but sounds reasonable). My company (UPS) covers domestic partnership BUT if you're management and your spouse has available coverage at their job then Ups cuts them. Then there's the shitty plans that people are getting. What the fuck does a $5000 deductible do for someone making $10 an hour? It's just lining the insurance company's pockets. Now why don't companies just hire contract workers? It defrays the cost to someone else. How many small businesses would it take to staff a Walmart? Fed-ex started the model that the tech industry has followed.
It's just a musical chair game for coverage and money.
The only ones winning are the stockholders.
Yeah. A bit rambling. Full of bs. Just another thing to keep us pee-ons focused on not changing the guard that make up this stupid shit. Like laws banning fucking yoga pants.
You only need 25% of the eligible voters to get what you want.....which is to keep us busy focusing on the shit that isn't changing.

[The Black Knight]

I call bullshit on all of it. Business isn't forced to do shit. They now have an excuse on why they will never hire you full time because of the cost of health-care. So every six months go ahead and fire you. Wait 30 days and why not try again? (I don't know but sounds reasonable). My company (UPS) covers domestic partnership BUT if you're management and your spouse has available coverage at their job then Ups cuts them. Then there's the shitty plans that people are getting. What the fuck does a $5000 deductible do for someone making $10 an hour? It's just lining the insurance company's pockets. Now why don't companies just hire contract workers? It defrays the cost to someone else. How many small businesses would it take to staff a Walmart? Fed-ex started the model that the tech industry has followed.
It's just a musical chair game for coverage and money.
The only ones winning are the stockholders.
Yeah. A bit rambling. Full of bs. Just another thing to keep us pee-ons focused on not changing the guard that make up this stupid shit. Like laws banning fucking yoga pants.
You only need 25% of the eligible voters to get what you want.....which is to keep us busy focusing on the shit that isn't changing.

Not quite, business are being forced to create "part time" workforces now. Why?? Because of the cost to insure everyone under their umbrella now. Sure it's fine to force companies to provide healthcare to everyone that works for them. However, where do you think those costs that are generated from more employees now receiving full benefits going to come from? The cost will be passed on to the consumer.

In government cases, the costs are passed on to the tax payer or the rate payer. You want everyone to have health care and now your local government agency has to provide healthcare to all of its workers(not just full time/permanent). Well now your taxes go up, or your utility rates go up.

You're asking all companies(Private and Municipal) to cover costs without receiving an infusion of capital or revenue to cover those new costs.

So when Safeway or King Soopers is now forced to cover all its employees, the prices on groceries goes up. Guess who foots the bill?? The Consumer...

Then we've got this idiot Administration pushing for minimum wage to be $15hr. Well that's all fine and great(and I'm all for everyone being able to make a living) the problem however lies in that if you push the minimum wage ceiling to $15, the cost is then passed on down the line to afford those "new wages".

So now it's a double whammy, businesses alike are getting slapped on both sides of the face. On one side you want them to provide healthcare for everyone, then on the other side you want them to raise the minimum wage pay. Then you expect them to keep these people employed 365 days a year, with full bene's and higher pay. The money for all that has to come from somewhere. Guess again?? the Consumer is going to foot the bill for all that too.

I agree with you, the astronomical deductibles are outrageous and something needs to be done to rein the healthcare companies being able to charge exorbitant premiums and deductibles. But that's a whole other ball of wax to get into. Obamacare doesn't do anything to rein in ridiculous costs. If anything, it's caused costs to sky-rocket because of the restrictions it's placed on companies.

Forcing people to pay for other people's problems does nothing more than to drive up the costs of everything else.



Lastly, any laws banning Yoga Pants are total BS!!! And people that promote it should be burned at the stake.



There's not a reason to ever want to ban this:

[Nolan]

Yeah, I can get behind this argument all damn day.

Just an unfocused rant was all. This push to raise the minimum wage is just a race towards the bottom. If you're really worth $15/hr to flip fucking burgers I should make at least $5/hr scratching my nuts.

[Zanatos]

Middle-class and poor workers have not had a real increase in income for more than 10 years, but inflation has kept prices rising. This has resulted in millions of hard-working people LOSING income year after year.

Also - the best way to stimulate the economy is to make sure that consumers can afford the necessities of life - especially the ones who work full-time jobs. Tax breaks for corporations and CEOs don't work because it makes no sense to expand one's business and hire more people when the demand for products is not there. So - when a corporation gets a tax windfall, it goes into the bank, where it remains until the economy begins to improve.

But if a poor person gets a tax windfall, they use it all to get their car fixed, buy shoes for their kid, splurge on a night out, etc. It immediately gets injected into the economy - increasing demand for good and services and causing the economy to improve. Then businesses begin to hire more people, and those people have money to spend which further increases demand for goods and services, etc., etc.

If you look at economic trends - states that have voluntarily increased minimum wages have generally experienced greater economic prosperity. It's Economics 101. You can Google the statistics if you like. It doesn't have shit to do with red and blue. It's just common sense.

As far as insurance goes - nobody wants to buy expensive health care when they are in their 20s - but everyone eventually gets old and needs it.

Maybe there should be a law that says you can opt out of health insurance at age 21 - but if you ever need health care, you have to pay cash in advance. And if you decide you want insurance when you turn 50 or 60, then that is just tough shit.

[madvlad]

Middle-class and poor workers have not had a real increase in income for more than 10 years, but inflation has kept prices rising. This has resulted in millions of hard-working people LOSING income year after year.

Also - the best way to stimulate the economy is to make sure that consumers can afford the necessities of life - especially the ones who work full-time jobs. Tax breaks for corporations and CEOs don't work because it makes no sense to expand one's business and hire more people when the demand for products is not there. So - when a corporation gets a tax windfall, it goes into the bank, where it remains until the economy begins to improve.

But if a poor person gets a tax windfall, they use it all to get their car fixed, buy shoes for their kid, splurge on a night out, etc. It immediately gets injected into the economy - increasing demand for good and services and causing the economy to improve. Then businesses begin to hire more people, and those people have money to spend which further increases demand for goods and services, etc., etc.

If you look at economic trends - states that have voluntarily increased minimum wages have generally experienced greater economic prosperity. It's Economics 101. You can Google the statistics if you like. It doesn't have shit to do with red and blue. It's just common sense....

[Ezzzzy1]

Didnt want to mess up the insurance convo over here so I started a yoga pant thread HERE

[madvlad]

Didnt want to mess up the insurance convo over here so I started a yoga pant thread HERE

Approved by the Obama care administration