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Thread: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

  1. #73
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    This is how the CSC used to be, imminent derailment threat in every thread.
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  2. #74
    Gold Member madvlad's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Wouldn't have it any other way haha, seems like the off-topic is women and relationships
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  3. #75
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post


    For some weird reason most women prefer these "guns"

    ummm.... maybe feminists don't like guns but I'm not into them. I like a chick that can make a long shot with a rifle.

  4. #76
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
    You notice a lot of the videos you posted have been taken down. Even the one with the girl saying she heard someone threaten 45 minutes before. These videos are dropping like flies and not sure exactly why????
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim-n-Dean View Post
    Because they're total bull shit!!

    I picked up my new .308 last night and you should have heard the morons at the gun store. Talking about Vegas and 9/11. BK would have fit right in.

    But then again, what do I know. I don't have a hair stylist, I cut my own...
    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
    Yeah but there are thousands of "fake" videos on Youtube that are not removed. Even finding a music video you see many fake videos till you get the real one.


    The one with the girl was not fake as she even came back and said now she was not so sure and was probably a coincidence; like we all knew, but not like this was some actor....just a misunderstanding is how I took it.


    Not making anything "conspiracy", just saw they were gone and disappearing fast.


    Well what do you expect at a gun store.....nobody has said shit about it at the gym, but guns are not allowed in the building at all.
    I did want to make a comment on this the other day and just spaced it out when I got home.

    Bulldog, I think you're finally starting to see the light just a bit in what I'm talking about. Dean is writing me off as a tin hat crazy but there is some validity to what I'm talking about.

    If you guys would just watch the Project Veritas thread I started, you'll see how there are gatekeepers and others removing videos or only allowing what they think should be shared on YouTube, and that's wrong.

    Everyone should have a voice when it comes to free speech and regardless if it sounds wild and far out, it should have a platform.

    When it's live video it's hard to dispute what you hear. Sure there are echos and other things that affect the sound. Yet, when you hear the report of a distance weapon being fired first and then hear fire right above someone next. It tells you that there is something not right about what the authorities or experts are telling you.

    When more and more people come out with comments of how they were hearing shots coming from different directions, it makes one wonder just what all went on.

    Then you see a video of what sounded to be singular sniper fire early on before everyone started to leave. It makes you wonder again what you're hearing.

    Again, as I've said, it all just doesn't add up.

    Dean thinks I'm crazy because I don't believe everything that is told to us by the government or the mass media. But when you see both the former and the latter lie time and again. It makes it easier to believe a YouTube video of people actually on the ground, than what some political figure or mainstream media pundit has to say.

    I've seen and read several reports from firearms experts and former military special forces, that say there clearly was a second shooter. To what extent, is what everyone wants to know. So if someone thinks I'm crazy or wearing the tinfoil hat because I trust my ears and eyes to what eyewitnesses have to say vs. those that are in power, then so be it.
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  5. #77
    Gold Member Kim-n-Dean's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    With all the YouTube experts, we should be able to prove all these conspiracy theories as true. Add in all the hair stylists, and we can solve all the worlds problems.

    Fine, the government is behind all this stuff. What cracks me up is all the idiots that think they know how a building should perform when it's hit by an airplane. The dude flips hamburgers at McDonald's and can't get your order right, but thinks he knows structural engineering.

    I use this as an example because it was exactly what was being talked about at the gun store the other day. This idiot says, "the speed and size of those plane would have toppled those buildings when they hit."

    Really? Well, they didn't topple. So, are you saying they were paper airplanes? What's your point?

    I then said, "well, I happen to be an architect, and I can assure you that those buildings performed exactly how engineers expected." All of a sudden no one had anything to say. How can you argue engineering with someone who does it for a living!

    Most of this stuff comes down to one idiot talking to anther idiot. Of course they agree with each other...

    Damn, I almost posted a BK style book.
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  6. #78
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    okay so let's talk about conspiracy. Vegas shooter was an inside job.... because it doesn't make sense... right?

    okay second shooter yet no other windows are broken out.... must have got that second shooters window fixed real damn fast. not like it's hard to fix those kinds of windows. lol. not all. lol.

    oh shit.... single shot rounds? well he was firing semi auto rifles.... so one could easily say there would be single shot rounds fired..... oh wait this is a conspiracy...


    come on man. you know what makes even less sense? this conspiracy bullshit. what's the goal of this? risk vs reward time.

    so Soros and whoever came up with this plan to kill this random dude and a shit ton of people all in the sake of gun control right? right? that's what we are saying. well let's use some logic here. some real world logic.

    what in your right mind thinks that this will change anything? okay the atf will end up taking a look at these stocks. you really think we are going to get anymore gun control from this? with a president who is pro 2a. a republican controlled Congress.... they couldn't pull it off when it was Obama and a school shooting. come on man. real world time. this Congress already knows the majority of us are pissed and passing another Brady bill would be the end of most of their political careers.

    so risk vs reward. the risk is major. if anyone fucks up and gets them outed it's a death sentence. getting caught doing something like this would literally be a death sentence. not just for those who organized it but the entire Democratic party.

    all for gun control that they have no way in hell pulling off.


    come on man. open your eyes and see past the bullshit.

    you keep saying it doesn't add up.... the story we are getting from the news adds up a hell of a lot more than this conspiracy bullshit.

    basically you are saying that this government who can't even figure out taxes and healthcare can not once... not twice... but numerous times pulled off all these shootings and cover ups. lol.

    get real bud. they couldn't even smuggle cocaine without getting caught.

  7. #79
    Senior Member j0ker's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim-n-Dean View Post
    Most of this stuff comes down to one idiot talking to anther idiot. Of course they agree with each other...
    Exactly!

  8. #80
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim-n-Dean View Post
    With all the YouTube experts, we should be able to prove all these conspiracy theories as true. Add in all the hair stylists, and we can solve all the worlds problems.

    Fine, the government is behind all this stuff. What cracks me up is all the idiots that think they know how a building should perform when it's hit by an airplane. The dude flips hamburgers at McDonald's and can't get your order right, but thinks he knows structural engineering.

    I use this as an example because it was exactly what was being talked about at the gun store the other day. This idiot says, "the speed and size of those plane would have toppled those buildings when they hit."

    Really? Well, they didn't topple. So, are you saying they were paper airplanes? What's your point?

    I then said, "well, I happen to be an architect, and I can assure you that those buildings performed exactly how engineers expected." All of a sudden no one had anything to say. How can you argue engineering with someone who does it for a living!

    Most of this stuff comes down to one idiot talking to anther idiot. Of course they agree with each other...

    Damn, I almost posted a BK style book.
    O.k. I'm not arguing 9/11 and I'll admit I'm not a structural engineer or architect. However, I do know guns and know them well. Have roughly 100K+ rounds I've shot in my life and know the difference in report from pistol to rifle to magnum rifle to LMG.

    Again, I'm not talking YouTube experts, I'm talking live video taken from people that were there at the shooting. Unless there is some serious video editing going on, you can definitively tell from videos I've seen that there are at least two shooters. Especially with the videos I've seen of the over-lapping fire happening at the same time.

    And just to give you some first person experience, one of our power plants borders the land next to Fort Carson here. I've been close the ranges doing work and have heard the Blackhawks doing training. And believe it or not, their cannon mounted guns have zero echo next to all the hills and valleys that are there. Granted, earth, stones, peaks and valleys will give off different acoustic feedback versus concrete jungle and buildings that Las Vegas has to offer. But I've still have yet to hear the Blackhawks .50 cal cannon have echo that everyone says they hear.

    Now I will give you that there is echo, I've heard it in the videos I've seen. The problem I have is the echo that's in the distance starts first vs. the gun heard over the cab driver. It would be different if the gun fire heard over the cab driver always occurred first and then you hear the echo in the distance. So it's a little give and take when listening to the videos.

    And lastly, everyone will have their opinion or point of view on how they hear things. Just because someone is a hair stylist doesn't make them any less of a person to what they hear. That's what I can't stand about you college bred pukes. You all thumb your nose and look down on those that have less than prestigious vocations than yourselves.

    Remind me again of how you college educated folks with all your analysis and brain power said Trump had zero chance of winning?? Oh yeah that's right, how did November 2016 taste???

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    okay so let's talk about conspiracy. Vegas shooter was an inside job.... because it doesn't make sense... right?

    okay second shooter yet no other windows are broken out.... must have got that second shooters window fixed real damn fast. not like it's hard to fix those kinds of windows. lol. not all. lol.

    oh shit.... single shot rounds? well he was firing semi auto rifles.... so one could easily say there would be single shot rounds fired..... oh wait this is a conspiracy...


    come on man. you know what makes even less sense? this conspiracy bullshit. what's the goal of this? risk vs reward time.

    so Soros and whoever came up with this plan to kill this random dude and a shit ton of people all in the sake of gun control right? right? that's what we are saying. well let's use some logic here. some real world logic.

    what in your right mind thinks that this will change anything? okay the atf will end up taking a look at these stocks. you really think we are going to get anymore gun control from this? with a president who is pro 2a. a republican controlled Congress.... they couldn't pull it off when it was Obama and a school shooting. come on man. real world time. this Congress already knows the majority of us are pissed and passing another Brady bill would be the end of most of their political careers.

    so risk vs reward. the risk is major. if anyone fucks up and gets them outed it's a death sentence. getting caught doing something like this would literally be a death sentence. not just for those who organized it but the entire Democratic party.

    all for gun control that they have no way in hell pulling off.


    come on man. open your eyes and see past the bullshit.

    you keep saying it doesn't add up.... the story we are getting from the news adds up a hell of a lot more than this conspiracy bullshit.

    basically you are saying that this government who can't even figure out taxes and healthcare can not once... not twice... but numerous times pulled off all these shootings and cover ups. lol.

    get real bud. they couldn't even smuggle cocaine without getting caught.
    Townie, I'm not saying it's all a conspiracy. What I am saying is this particular active shooter doesn't add up. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

    Again, the window thing. Could they fix a second window on a different floor really fast? Sure if they had it planned that way. I'm not saying they did, just showing videos of people that said they saw muzzle flash from lower down on the building.

    The single shots are more plausible to me. As I've said, I could hear a definitive audible difference to the single shots verse the automatic fire.

    And this isn't directed at you or anyone but apparently people don't think that others like myself who do our own reloading know the difference in how a gun will sound with different loads. I've shot enough .223 and .308 vs magnum rounds to tell you the difference between all of them. And I don't care what anyone says, a .223, .270, .308 or .243 aren't magnum rounds. They are powerful rounds, yet they aren't magnums. They don't produce the same energy as a magnum, they won't produce the same high powered report that a magnum rifle will.

    I've got a friend that's shot his .308 next to my .300 Ultra Mag and my ultra mag makes that .308 sound like cap gun. The .308 isn't a round to sneeze at either, yet you put it up next to a .300RUM, .375 H&H or .338 Lapua and the .308 isn't even in the same class. Even next to a .7MM or 300 Win Mag and the .308 is weak.

    So for example, my .300 Ultra Mag comes in three powers levels of factory ammo. I've shot the level 1 and level 2 stuff. I reload my loads at power level 3. The power level one stuff is light and has very low recoil. It also doesn't have much of a crack when shot. Now, take my load of a 200gr bullet with 91grs of powder and when it goes boom, it goes BOOM!! Everyone hates shooting next to me with it and I don't even have a muzzle brake on it yet. It will be unbearable with a muzzle brake for anyone on the sides of me.

    As far as more gun control. I believe this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of pushing for more and more gun control legislation. Remember, it's all about getting just a little in, the whole toe in the door analogy. If they can get something, even if it's just to restrict bump stocks, then that's something. It's all about little wins for the gun control crowd.

    I believe that the more and more these type of incidents happen, sooner or later people are going to start calling for the government to just do something, they don't care what just as long as the government does something. I believe, yes even pro-gun people will even be willing to trade their freedoms just so that it will seem that the government can do something about all of the mass shootings that are yet to come in the future. I for one will NOT be one of those people. I'll fight to maintain my freedoms and the freedoms of everyone else until I'm in the grave.
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  9. #81
    Gold Member Kim-n-Dean's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    BTW - I knew Trump was going to win as soon the "real" Hillary came out...
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  10. #82
    Gold Member Kim-n-Dean's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Okay, another BTW - I've shot a lot, too. Way before you were doing it!
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  11. #83
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Wow Grumpy Bear, must have ruffled some feathers with my last post.

    Look whatever happened in your past is your past. The fact you take a dig at someone because they happened to be a hair stylist again points to your attitude that someone is beneath you based on what they do for a living.

    I don't disclose what I do for a living as it's not your business.

    I'm glad you've been shooting for longer than I've been alive, you still haven't proven to me you know anything about ballistics or the differences that have arisen between what people hear in the report of the guns being used. All you do seem to know is that if someone believes or has an opinion that is outside of yours, then they are obviously wrong. You may believe what you're being told by the MSM or government officials, but I don't.

    I think we can all have beliefs and opinions as to what happened in Las Vegas. To me, I will still maintain my belief that there is a good possibility of multiple shooters and multiple weapons(meaning not all full auto, i.e. bolt action sniper) were used.

    So put that in your pipe and smoke it pumpkin.
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    "Finish today what others won't, so you can achieve tomorrow what others can't."




  12. #84
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    "So live your life so the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their views, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide.
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    "Finish today what others won't, so you can achieve tomorrow what others can't."




  13. #85
    Senior Member j0ker's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Wait....who is a hairstylist?!

    Alex Jones is a trolling idiot.

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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    I'm sorry man to keep my attention you are not going to be able to bring Alex Jones into the conversation for evidence. that guys nuts.

    as for shooting. well considering you have shot... been around shooting.. you should have known from the get go it was a bump stock. I knew on the fourth video I watched as the rate of fire wasn't consistent.

    as for your window theory? hahaha ummm.... no. those are not the same kind of windows that goes into your he and takes a lot of time to replace.

    I am not sure what you don't like about this whole thing. I'm truly not. I can blow your conspiracy theories out of the water easy.

    okay let's start on the getting the weapons into the hotel. okay... you have been around rifles and you should know that you could easily get 30 rifles broke down into a bag. easy. super easy. but that's assuming he did it in one shot. I mean.... not like he was there for several days... because.... you know.... how hard would it be to make a couple of trips?

    oh I know it's so suspicious for a guy to walk through a hotel with a bag. lol. come on man.... this isn't some tiny hotel with ten people staying at it. a couple of heavy bags for a bell hop is just another day. there isn't video surveillance in the room and they would have only noticed something on the hallways if there would have been a reason to go and look. it's not like the movies where some guy is just sitting there looking at four screens waiting for someone to do something. so him being able to set some cameras up in the hall without being seen really isn't a stretch either. because again there's only a couple thousand people coming and going at all times. maybe a bit of an exaggeration but still.

    last and definitely not least. this wasn't some tactical master. all you have to do is watch a couple of movies and you can learn what this guy was doing. elevated position with rifles with a high rate of fire into a crowd.


    honestly just the body count tells me this isnt a two shooter situation. with only 58 dead there is no way there was a second shooter. zip... zero... nada.

    if you would have thrown boots on the ground and started mag dumping into a crowd of 22k people we are no longer talking about 58 dead. we are now talking about body counts in the hundreds. think about it bro. I know you played call of duty. maybe a little airport scene?

    but a shooter mag dumping into a crowd from 500+ yards out? yeah I can see the numbers. easy.

    so I mean really. I'm not sure what you think stinks. it's all pretty on par for what I watched. every last bit of it. only thing missing is his motive but before you say you have something there understand that we never really hear about a motive with these things. why? because it's just some asshole who decided to kill innocent people. nothing will make sense to us about it because we don't sit around and dream up plans to kill people.

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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    I'm sorry man to keep my attention you are not going to be able to bring Alex Jones into the conversation for evidence. that guys nuts.

    as for shooting. well considering you have shot... been around shooting.. you should have known from the get go it was a bump stock. I knew on the fourth video I watched as the rate of fire wasn't consistent.

    as for your window theory? hahaha ummm.... no. those are not the same kind of windows that goes into your he and takes a lot of time to replace.

    I am not sure what you don't like about this whole thing. I'm truly not. I can blow your conspiracy theories out of the water easy.

    okay let's start on the getting the weapons into the hotel. okay... you have been around rifles and you should know that you could easily get 30 rifles broke down into a bag. easy. super easy. but that's assuming he did it in one shot. I mean.... not like he was there for several days... because.... you know.... how hard would it be to make a couple of trips?

    oh I know it's so suspicious for a guy to walk through a hotel with a bag. lol. come on man.... this isn't some tiny hotel with ten people staying at it. a couple of heavy bags for a bell hop is just another day. there isn't video surveillance in the room and they would have only noticed something on the hallways if there would have been a reason to go and look. it's not like the movies where some guy is just sitting there looking at four screens waiting for someone to do something. so him being able to set some cameras up in the hall without being seen really isn't a stretch either. because again there's only a couple thousand people coming and going at all times. maybe a bit of an exaggeration but still.

    last and definitely not least. this wasn't some tactical master. all you have to do is watch a couple of movies and you can learn what this guy was doing. elevated position with rifles with a high rate of fire into a crowd.


    honestly just the body count tells me this isnt a two shooter situation. with only 58 dead there is no way there was a second shooter. zip... zero... nada.

    if you would have thrown boots on the ground and started mag dumping into a crowd of 22k people we are no longer talking about 58 dead. we are now talking about body counts in the hundreds. think about it bro. I know you played call of duty. maybe a little airport scene?

    but a shooter mag dumping into a crowd from 500+ yards out? yeah I can see the numbers. easy.

    so I mean really. I'm not sure what you think stinks. it's all pretty on par for what I watched. every last bit of it. only thing missing is his motive but before you say you have something there understand that we never really hear about a motive with these things. why? because it's just some asshole who decided to kill innocent people. nothing will make sense to us about it because we don't sit around and dream up plans to kill people.
    Alex Jones is way out there and many of the things he says are crazy(especially some of his aliens theories). Where he is relevant though is some of his commentary and interviews with people that were at the shooting and also weapons experts he's talked with. But enough about Alex Jones.

    You're right I have been around guns, many different kinds of weapons. Which is why I knew immediately the first volley of fire that is heard came from an LMG(light machine gun). I've been next to full auto AR plateform(M4's) and they shoot way faster than the rate of fire I heard from the first initial shots fired.

    Now with that said, some of the other fire that was heard coming from Mandalay Bay was from bump fire weapons. However, I still contest that some of it wasn't from AR platform weapons. I will say this, the bump fire stocks that I've used and been around are very erratic and somewhat hard to keep a consistent fire rate. I've been lucky to get through a full 30rd magazine with a bump stock in one squeeze. Most of the time, I've only been able to get off short bursts of fire. Then again, I'm not someone who owns a bump stock, nor do I believe that automatic fire really lends itself to accuracy. Constant automatic fire is about target suppression, than target acquisition and precision.

    I've not brought any conspiracy theories in other than the larger weapons being used, sniper fire and multiple shooter scenario.

    Other than that, I completely agree that anyone can move 30+ weapons through any heavily populated place fairly easy. It would just take many trips and from the details we've been given as to when he was at the Hotel then, yes if he was there several days prior, then it would be just a matter of time for him to move that much firepower. That said, anymore than a few rifles per bag would be about it. I'm lucky to get two rifles and three pistols with a few hundred rounds and mags in my tac bag and hobble when I walk with it. It's very heavy.

    I agree with you, he wasn't some tactical master and really engaged people at a distance to far away to really deal massive damage. He did kill 58 people and injure 500+ so that's still a very high casualty count. As I've said, .223 and .308 at 500+ yards really does affect their muzzle energy and you're looking drastically lower performance from the rounds. Which is why I think so many were wounded vs. killed. If the majority of the rounds used were .223 it would go to show that at the range mentioned(500+ yards) a .223/5.56 has lost a majority of its stopping power.

    If the majority of ammunition used was .223/5.56, then yes he used the wrong caliber for the job.

    "Never shoot a large caliber person with a small caliber weapon" and especially at that range. Had more .308 been used then that might have changed.

    But you have to look at just how much ammo he used. If you look at the fact that he racked up 600 casualties out of 22,000 people, then yes that's low. But if he only fired around three or four thousand rounds, then he had a somewhat high percentage of targets hit.

    So I agree with much of what you're saying on the fact he moved such an arsenal unseen and undetected. He was a high roller that got comp'd a lot of perks. Also he was able to use the service elevator, so that meant he was able to move relatively unmolested by security or other people.

    The only things I have issue with are: 1. The over-lapping fire that can be heard(indicating a possibility of two shooters) 2. The single shots that rang out initially, that could easily be heard as having a much different muzzle blast/report indicating that they were most likely a magnum round. 3. The first initial automatic fire that started was highly likely an LMG weapon.

    My theory on what sounds to be the initial sniper fire is that those rounds were intended for the jet fuel tanks and nothing more.

    So I agree with much of what you and others are saying. Where I differ is that everything is being blamed on bump stocks only.

    People seem to think that if you entertain the notion of an LMG being used, maybe a second shooter or possibly sniper rifles being used then you're out in left field and off the reservation.

    You do have to ask yourself this. Why does the Sheriff in all these press briefings keep on addressing the conspiracy theory ideas?? If they really don't believe in that and think those people are looney, then the sheriff and FBI wouldn't give it a second thought. But since so much material has surfaced on YouTube and Facebook of videos from eye witnesses. You can tell it's pissing the authorities off that people don't believe them. Because if they really are hiding information then that's suppression of facts to the public, and with YouTube and Facebook taking down all of these videos from people, that right there confirms the gatekeepers blocking information from getting to the people.
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    "Finish today what others won't, so you can achieve tomorrow what others can't."




  16. #88
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    well I need to hear these overlapping shots. I never heard anything like that in any of the videos I have watched.

    but if we are going to continue this talk of conspiracy theory it truly falls apart. only a fool would think you would be able to penetrate those tanks with a 308. hell at that range I don't think a 50 Cal would get that job done. not without depleted uranium rounds. something not every day shooters get their hands on. so this basically takes another piece off the table. because come on man.

    https://youtu.be/pqxoiAjSrAU

    jump to 50 seconds. that sounds damn near identical to what the Vegas shooting sounded like.

    see the rounds I think you're talking about aren't the sounds of the rounds being fired but the sounds of the rounds making contact with the ground. at 500 yards out and at that height you wouldn't hear much from a typical 223. not over the noise of the concert and all those people.


    also you have to remember about the wounded that this number doesn't show who was actually hit by gun fire and who was trampled. remember there is a crowd of 22k people who have now figured out they are being fired upon. people were stomped on and run over. people got hurt trying to jump walls and all kinds of things. hell they had people on the runways at the airport.

    as for this second shooter there just isn't evidence for it. this would have been a perfectly timed event where two shooters would have been communicating with each other. the body count would have gone through the roof.

    sniper fire? yeah no. I mean come on. too dark for normal optics. too much bleeding light for night vision. thermal would have been a nightmare in a crowd like that. so yeah you have like four single shots at the beginning at the fuel tanks. no boom and he then he lights off his first barrage into the crowd.

    we always talk about this second shooter nonsense every time something like this happens. but the body count just isn't there. 50 dead out of a thousand rounds? yeah that seems pretty on point.

    also I could move 30 rifles at once in one bag on wheels easy. very easy. a couple thousand rounds in a second bag? even easier. now that's just if we are talking a one time move. this guy only needed five large bags and he could have brought everything in at once.

    bellhop get your cart I have some heavy bags. not all that uncommon. tons of privacy... plenty of time to figure out your finale plans. yeah... this isn't really some kind of master plan that would have taken some sort of ex navy seal to plan for.

    now if he had actually gotten out of the building... maybe.. but that's a pretty big maybe. I'm actually surprised he didn't get out if he was planning for that.

  17. #89
    Gold Member bulldog's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    we always talk about this second shooter nonsense every time something like this happens.
    Yeah way back in the JFK assassination conspiracy theories were flying around about a 2nd shooter and as far as I know it was never proven....wasn't the final verdict it was sunlight off a bottle.



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    If there was a 2nd shooter in the Hotel and he shot through a window, no way could he have fixed the glass....that is just crazy talk because that window would have to be fixed within minutes for nobody to not see it. I do agree with Townie though and I do feel the casualties would have been higher if there was a 2nd shooter....honestly I am amazed that more were not killed based on the number of bullets fired.
    Bulldog's Motto: F*ck around and I'm going to bite you!!!

  18. #90
    Senior Member j0ker's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
    honestly I am amazed that more were not killed based on the number of bullets fired.
    Dumping a mag with a bump fire is pretty inaccurate at moderate ranges, but 500+ yards he was just shooting at the crowded mass and hoping he hit someone.

  19. #91
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by j0ker View Post
    Dumping a mag with a bump fire is pretty inaccurate at moderate ranges, but 500+ yards he was just shooting at the crowded mass and hoping he hit someone.
    oh and you can hear it in the videos too. the rounds hitting the ground get close to the camera and then fade off. he was just covering the area with bullets.

    part of me can't believe people just sat there with rounds hitting all around the. fuck that I would have been gone.

  20. #92
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    well I need to hear these overlapping shots. I never heard anything like that in any of the videos I have watched.

    but if we are going to continue this talk of conspiracy theory it truly falls apart. only a fool would think you would be able to penetrate those tanks with a 308. hell at that range I don't think a 50 Cal would get that job done. not without depleted uranium rounds. something not every day shooters get their hands on. so this basically takes another piece off the table. because come on man.

    https://youtu.be/pqxoiAjSrAU

    jump to 50 seconds. that sounds damn near identical to what the Vegas shooting sounded like.

    see the rounds I think you're talking about aren't the sounds of the rounds being fired but the sounds of the rounds making contact with the ground. at 500 yards out and at that height you wouldn't hear much from a typical 223. not over the noise of the concert and all those people.


    also you have to remember about the wounded that this number doesn't show who was actually hit by gun fire and who was trampled. remember there is a crowd of 22k people who have now figured out they are being fired upon. people were stomped on and run over. people got hurt trying to jump walls and all kinds of things. hell they had people on the runways at the airport.

    as for this second shooter there just isn't evidence for it. this would have been a perfectly timed event where two shooters would have been communicating with each other. the body count would have gone through the roof.

    sniper fire? yeah no. I mean come on. too dark for normal optics. too much bleeding light for night vision. thermal would have been a nightmare in a crowd like that. so yeah you have like four single shots at the beginning at the fuel tanks. no boom and he then he lights off his first barrage into the crowd.

    we always talk about this second shooter nonsense every time something like this happens. but the body count just isn't there. 50 dead out of a thousand rounds? yeah that seems pretty on point.

    also I could move 30 rifles at once in one bag on wheels easy. very easy. a couple thousand rounds in a second bag? even easier. now that's just if we are talking a one time move. this guy only needed five large bags and he could have brought everything in at once.

    bellhop get your cart I have some heavy bags. not all that uncommon. tons of privacy... plenty of time to figure out your finale plans. yeah... this isn't really some kind of master plan that would have taken some sort of ex navy seal to plan for.

    now if he had actually gotten out of the building... maybe.. but that's a pretty big maybe. I'm actually surprised he didn't get out if he was planning for that.
    See I'm thinking you didn't get a chance to see the same videos that I got to see early on after the shooting. See I got to see video as it happened that very night. We were just finishing a week of night work. We had to do one more night(Sunday into Monday) and one of the guys on our crew had his friend in Vegas when it all went down. I got to see video he posted to his Facebook page. His video sounded different than some of the others that have surfaced. I got to hear it as it all happened initially. From the position his friend was in, he was able to capture good audio from it. To me, the first burst of automatic fire sounded to be from an LMG. The video his friend had taken was by the Mandalay Bay and not on the concert field. There were no impacts from rounds hitting the ground on his video. Just all audio and video of the shots being fired.

    Then after that, in the first days after the shooting. I saw tons of other videos surfacing on YouTube of the sounds that people were capturing. I saw several that captured over-lapping fire. One of them happened to be the video the female cab driver captured while below the Mandalay Bay. But I saw many others that were able to capture what sounded to be over-lapping fire.

    Then I saw other videos of what happened just before the shooting. The one I posted(that has been taken down) was probably the clearest and captured what exactly was going on first. However, these videos in particular captured what sounded to be single shot and high powered rifle sounds. This was probably close to five seconds before the first burst of automatic fire started.

    So those are the videos I saw early on, subsequently those videos have all been taken down. Even the guy at work, his friends video has been blocked on Facebook due to gatekeepers wanting to stop videos.

    Now on to the fuel tanks. I agree, no way a 308 at that range would have enough muzzle energy to inflict enough damage to penetrate those tanks. I will say this, if there were the single shots from a high powered rifle used. Then there is a possibility of them penetrating the tanks. A .50BMG would have sufficient muzzle energy at that range. Remember, a .50BMG produces 15000lbs of muzzle energy at the muzzle and at 1000 yards drops to around 5000lbs of muzzle energy. At 1500yrds a .50BMG will still be producing more muzzle energy that a .44 magnum at point blank range(roughly 1600lbs of muzzle energy). Basically, a .50BMG at 1000yds still produces more muzzle energy than my .300 Ultra Mag does at the muzzle(I'm around 4500lbs of muzzle energy).

    Really, anything less than a .338 Lapua at that range is pushing it to penetrate those tanks. I will say this, a regular steel core FMJ is more than capable of inflicting serious damage on armor. I don't see why an FMJ steel core from a high powered rifle couldn't penetrate those tanks, unless they are super reinforced to withstand damage.

    Also armor piercing rounds are not hard to come by either. AP's are easily obtainable and the steel core FMJ is called a poor man's armor piercing round. I agree with you, depleted rounds are hard to come by, but not AP's. And even I can reload a standard steel core FMJ in my .300 Ultra Mag and be able to rip through a lot of stuff.

    As for the Second Shooter concept. From the videos of the over-lapping fire I heard. It stopped within the 2nd and 3rd volley of fire. After that, it all went to a single shooter sound. I agree with you, there should have been higher totals of people hit, and it's a good thing that there weren't more. Maybe the shooter or shooters just sucked and used the wrong weapons for the range of the targets.

    I will say this, as far as communicating. I've been able to practice what's called a SIM shot with a friend of mine. We can shoot both high powered rifles at the count of 3, and make it sound as one round fired. Reason behind this, if you have two snipers both can take a SIM shot and not reveal there are two snipers as it sounds like one shot, yet two targets are hit.

    Now as far as sniper fire with optics at night. I can say this I see just fine with my Vortex on my .300 Ultra Mag at night. Not to mention all one would really need is a illuminated reticle to lock on to the fuel tanks. Remember, a sniper if trained, will shoot from cover. Meaning, he's further back inside the room and all light is negated by shooting from cover. So with an illuminated reticle, he could shoot at the fuel tanks with ease.

    Then we get into FLIR(forward looking infra-red) scopes. Trijicon makes their new REAP-IR scope that is complete bad ass. 6 different visions(don't quote me on that), that allow for black and white(with hot black), black and white(with hot white), thermal(predator vision), and orange vision(not sure where this would be used). Most guys will use a variant of the black and white in either hot black or hot white. When I say hot, it means that the targets in the vision will either appear hot white or hot black depending on the setting. These sort of scopes have been hugely popular in night hunting, primarily in Feral Hog hunting. It's not uncommon to drop close to 100 hogs in a night with these scopes.

    I agree moving that many weapons would be easy. However, even all at once on a cart, you'll have lots of big bags. Most bags will be large and in the 40in or longer size. Ammo, well that is probably the easiest, duffle bags or suitcases would be the easiest for ammo. Magazines, would be in the same vein, duffle bags or suitcases.

    Lastly,

    I did find one thing interesting in a media brief I heard. They said, they have evaluated the shooters brain via autopsy and it seemed to be normal. So how can you tell all that considering there was anything left of the guys brain. Remember, apparently the shooter killed himself, well there probably wasn't much left of his brain to examine if he really did kill himself. I mean really, no dies from a self inflicted leg wound or even a chest wound that quick. And if he did blow his head off, I'm surprised there was much if anything left of his brain for forensics to examine. At that point, the brain would be covered in powder burns from the round flying through his head.
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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  21. #93
    Gold Member Kim-n-Dean's Avatar
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    I didn't read this post at all (freakin' books), but for some reason this last paragraph jumped out at me as I was scrolling by.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I mean really, no dies from a self inflicted leg wound or even a chest wound that quick.
    You keep saying stupid shit like this and it's really hard to take you seriously. As a former EMT I can assure you that people not only die instantly from gun shots to the chest, they also die instantly from blunt force trauma. Like from a steering wheel in a car crash. Freakin' genius!
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    ummm. no. seriously and most seriously no. it would not be hard to move 30 rifles in one bag. my dirt bike bag could easily move 30 rifles. easy. super easy. hell I have for three rifles and a pistol into one pelican case for flying. walked right into the airport with it and no one even took a second look at me. that's an actual rifles case.

    https://youtu.be/QCrNsC0mTBg

    here you go. I found your single shots. there is no overlapping. you can hear the single shots and then the shooting stops for a second and the bursts start to come.

    and yes those fuel tanks are very thick. they are designed to withstand extreme damage and heat without exploding. not to mention the weight they are designed to hold. also you have to take into account this isn't a flat surface. it is curved. no a 50 Cal would not pierce this.

    so yeah man second shooter? no.

  23. #95
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    ...and don't forget that JP-A can be very difficult to light when it's a tank full. Those tanks would never have exploded and most likely wouldn't have even caught fire.
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  24. #96
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    Re: The anti-gun idiots will be going ape shit over this one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I mean really, no dies from a self inflicted leg wound or even a chest wound that quick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim-n-Dean View Post
    I didn't read this post at all (freakin' books), but for some reason this last paragraph jumped out at me as I was scrolling by.


    You keep saying stupid shit like this and it's really hard to take you seriously. As a former EMT I can assure you that people not only die instantly from gun shots to the chest, they also die instantly from blunt force trauma. Like from a steering wheel in a car crash. Freakin' genius!
    Yeah I read that statement too and was like WTF! We all know a shot the the heart will kill instantly (probably faster than the brain even), so let's talk about the leg. If the femoral artery is damaged, you most likely will die of exsanguination (bleeding out) fast! The artery is so strong it is very hard to stop the bleeding and you have about 5 minutes before you bleed out....so yeah not instant, but still pretty fast.


    Same as what Dean says, my wife tells me stories all the time of people dying from chest trauma. We have so many critical organs in that area that it is very easy to get internal bleeding...along with many other complications. In fact a head a friend in HS die when he hit a light pool and he was crushed by the steering wheel and died instantly
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