Why do we highside?

[Sean]

As I get faster (little by little) I am starting to think about the effects of taking corners at higher speeds. Lowside is easy to understand (been there, done that) but I'm curious about it's evil counterpart, the highside. Why does it happen? What are some reasons? Maybe some people with experience (regretfully) can help.

I only know of two reasons why one would highside right now:
1. to strong of acceleration out of a corner
2. tires sliding and then then get good grip

Can you help me understand this a little further....so I can avoid it. Thanks.

[Slo]

To me, my little highside was an extension of a low-side being that the tires caught traction after the initial loss of traction. I'm sure there are many factors and examples but this was my situation.

[McVaaahhh]

3. We're riding a borrowed bike.

*cough* Scott *cough* Chris *cough*

[Sean]

3. We're riding a borrowed bike.

I thought that was exclusive to Chris and Scott?

[MetaLord 9]

the reason you highside is because your rear tire comes out of traction & then suddenly comes back into traction being misalianged with the front while the front remains in traction. bike tries to stand up & right itself, tossing you in the process. Whatever you to do get there (i.e. coming out of a corner too hard & breaking the rear loose, hitting gravel & having the tire slide out & catch, etc.), that's what happens (rear loses traction)

[Sortarican]

As far I know, #2 is the Alpha and Omega of the highside.
Break loose....hook up....highside.

The thing that frightens me is the slow speeds at which it can happen.
Granted, it's easier to save at the lower the speed, but I almost highsided the other month doing about 25mph.
Scarey how much kenetic energy is stored in your body and bike at even low speeds.


Then again, like Brian said, there's people here with much more experience with H/S's.

Scott......Chris.....Bob......oh yeah **cough**cough**.

[McVaaahhh]

Scarey how much kenetic energy is stored in your body and bike at even low speeds.

I thought that was from bad chinese food at lunch?

[Sortarican]

I thought that was from bad chinese food at lunch?

You notice Taco Bell doesn't sponsor riders.....coincidence?....I think not.

[Sean]

Taco bell has nothing on the morning after effects of the dreaded, dell taco!!!!!
//I digress, back to the topic at hand

[Sortarican]

//I digress, back to the topic at hand

....ahhhh....if we must.

The toughest thing to learn is avoiding the natural knee-jerk reaction to let off the throttle when the ass end breaks loose.

Dirt riding as a kid has saved my ass in the past.
But it's been a long time since I road around purposely breaking it loose.

Racer types, what's your technique? Feather the throttle, stay on it hard?
Anything you practice to get you out of a H/S?

[rybo]

So I have some experience with this topic, as has been noted above.

The highside is generally the result of the back of the bike losing traction and then suddenly regaining it. The rear wheel being out of line with the direction of travel and gripping means that something has to give, and you fall off. That part is well established. WHY do we end up in this situation?

There are a number of reasons, some have already been covered:

1) Getting on the gas too hard/ too soon exiting a corner - causes the rear wheel to spin and slide. Natural reaction to this is to close the throttle, at which point the rear tire slows to ground speed and regains traction.

2) Carrying too much lean angle through the corner to the exit. As you get near the very edge of the tire the size of the contact patch decreases, when this happens the amount of available traction also decreases. Compound this with the edge of the tire having a smaller circumference than the middle and you also effectively lower the gear ratio. Turn on the throttle here and you have an increased ability to spin the rear wheel. Because your leaned WAY over the bike really steps out in this scenario and your desire to close the throttle is almost irresitable.

3) Missing your apex - This is what happened to me at Miller. I missed the apex of the corner and had to turn harder and later in the turn than I had on previous laps. I still used my same marker for opening the throttle though, so I was leaned over further and still turning when I opened the gas. In conversation with Mr. B Bostrom after the accident he said this was an extremely common cause of the highside. If you hit your mark and are going too fast, then you tend to lowside the bike. It's missing the apex and trying to continue at pace that can cause the highside.

4) If you are using the rear brake at the track (I am not) it is possible to highside by locking the rear wheel going into the turn and then letting off the brake and losing the rear end that way. I've never seen it happen in person, but I'm sure it's possible.

For me the best thing I can do when I get into a situation with the rear wheel spinning is to continue to hold the throttle where it is (not open it further or close it). The bike is like a giant gyroscope and it WANTS to stay in the plane it's in right then. If I can keep the throttle at it's existing position eventually the bike will catch up to the wheel speed and straighten out. For an example of this on film catch the last part of the GP race at INDY. Rossi has a BIG moment where the rear steps out BOTH directions in about .2 seconds. He doesn't even break his tuck, holds the throttle where it was and the bike straightens itself out.

The other thing for me is to try not to get into the situation in the first place. Working hard at hitting your marks every time, every lap (even warm up and cool down laps) is one really good way to avoid getting into the highside situation. Working to improve progressively (get fast - slow) is also a good way to not put yourself in greater danger of crashing. Trying a new line? do it at 80% the first few times through, get the brain and body used to a NEW picture before taking it at speed. Trying to move the braking further into the corner? Do it 10 feet at a time, not 50.

That's all I've got for you...hope it helps.

s

[Sully]

Just don't do it Sean, then we won't have to analyze why it happened ... Easy enough, right ?

[pilot]

[Sortarican]

.....

Fixed it for ya Pilot:
Attachment 9390

[dragos13]

The number one reason, IMO, for beginner riders to highside on the track is:

CHOPPING OFF THE THROTTLE

When you feel the rear tire sliding out, its not always a bad thing. Just make sure you are hanging off the bike, keep steady throttle and push the bike upright. If you can avoid the instinct to chop the throttle, you will be ok.

[Sortarican]

...If you can avoid the instinct to chop the throttle, you will be ok.

That exactly it. "IF" you can resist.

Last track day I (accidently) broke it loose in 2 and was able to stay on the throttle and actually went through it faster than I normally do.
Marc captured it on film....it's my wallpaper now.
Attachment 9391

[konichd]

When in doubt, THROTTLE OUT!

[Sean]

Awesome Scott! That helps a lot, thanks for the detailed info.

Just don't do it Sean, then we won't have to analyze why it happened ... Easy enough, right ?

Thank you Capt. Smartass for that insightful lesson on life.

The number one reason, IMO, for beginner riders to highside on the track is:

CHOPPING OFF THE THROTTLE

And that's how I lowsided too! It was a noob mistake which resulted in a dirt sandwich. Good tip, I can see a natural inclination to chop it.

[Sully]

Of course... that's what I'm here for... your pleasure only

[dragos13]

I think the only way to overcome the natural instinct to chop, is to just get practice at it. The more often the rear brakes loose (when in control) the more you'll get used to it and resist chopping. Then like Jeff said, you get thru the corner faster then before. Nice caption by the way.

[BigE]

Definitely some good info above. I don't really have anything to add but do have some examples.
McVaaah's pt. 3. On a borrowed bike. I almost HS'ed off a guy's bike at Pueblo. Reason was Scott's #2. The owner of said bike was off to the side taking pics so I decided to come around with my knee down. Well, as soon as I got my knee down the rear end lit up. I just stayed on the gas while pushing the bike upright (as Drago stated). Once it caught traction I got bucked into a classic flying W, landed back on the bike and even though a Mille isn't a dirt bike, went off roading. That was actually scarier than the highside and buckoff because I was going offcamber on alfalfa or whatever weeds are by the track, and they were nice and green, ie. LOTS of water in them and shedding off. It was like riding street tires on ice. All ended well enough though, no crashed bike, no crashed me.

Scott's #4 and Pilot's lil diagram apply more to street than track, IMHO. Scott's point happens tons on dirt bikes (that's how most dirt highsides happen in my experience, which back in the day was quite a few). On a dirt bike you brake slide into corners and if things don't happen right on the exit...the result is a catapult. Been there, done that, it sucks.
As for Pilot's diagram, I had a Harley dude highside in front of me going straight down 287. He locked the rear wheel up, did two fishtails and launched himself on three.

The best advice is to stay steady on the gas and as always look where you want to go.

[Aracheon]

3. We're riding a borrowed bike.

*cough* Scott *cough* Chris *cough*

I keel you.

As far I know, #2 is the Alpha and Omega of the highside.

Scott......Chris.....Bob......oh yeah **cough**cough**.

The number one reason, IMO, for beginner riders to highside on the track is:

CHOPPING OFF THE THROTTLE

When you feel the rear tire sliding out, its not always a bad thing. Just make sure you are hanging off the bike, keep steady throttle and push the bike upright. If you can avoid the instinct to chop the throttle, you will be ok.

That might have been what happened to me. Elden said I had the bike leaned as far over as it'd go when the rear slid out on me, and I probably instinctively chopped it because of the angle. When I drifted out of T5 on the first lap of that race, I didn't chop it... and miraculously... the bike stayed upright!

[bodhizafa]

When in doubt, THROTTLE OUT!

I have to memorize that.

[konichd]

If you have a Kawi its just this easy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s44KOINBB0