Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 24 of 27

Thread: Braking in a Turn

  1. #1
    Huge Member Site Admin Mother Goose's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    a glass case of emotion
    Posts
    272,202

    Braking in a Turn

    Quoted and stickied.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    I'm not religious about the covering or not covering the brake lever. What's important is how to use the lever. If covering works for you, do it. If not, don't worry about it. Casey hit the important point: being comfortable in controlling the bike by practicing. You don't want to have to figure out how to do something in the second or two that you need to make a decision. It needs to be instinctual.

    Instruction from experienced riders can be very helpful. Riding at a a place like IMI when it's not too crowded, and working with someone will allow you to practice things without having to worry about other things like cars. Start easy and progressively increase so that you become comfortable with interpreting what the bike is telling you. If you are smooth with your inputs to the bike and you understand what the bike is doing, you'll learn how to use everything the bike can do for you in an emergency situation. If you grab a handful of brake while leaned over because you panic, you'll end up on your head.

    On the street, even at an elevated pace, I rarely use the brake. I recommend you try it at a comfortable pace, and then slowly and methodically pick up the pace until you start to feel the urge to use the brake. Stay at that pace for a while until you no longer feel the need to go for the brake. This will teach you to use the engine braking properly. A lot of new riders that I have helped over the years have had a tendency to be geared too high going into corners. Keeping the RPMs up will help you in a number of ways in a corner but mainly it gives you the ability to make speed adjustments that keep the bike much more stable than when you have to use the brakes.

    But there will be times where you'll need to get on the brakes while leaned over. It's really not a big deal once you understand how to do it and others have mentioned the basic ideas. What you have to do is manage that contact patch properly. If you're on the edge of the tire, you're using the majority of the friction that the contact patch can give you for the turning force. You have to be very delicate on the lever. If you only need to scrub a little speed, you might be better off using the back brake, again smoothly. You just have to be careful not to lock it up, because if you do, you stand a pretty good chance of highsiding. Again, practice it in a methodical manner. But you might need to use the front at some point, so you should practice that. Learn what the bike feels like as you apply the front brake while leaned over. Casey described what happens, now go out and see what it feels like. Empty parking lots work great.

    The biggest thing that will help you in braking is learning how to properly apply the brakes. A lot of newer riders tend to treat them as an on-off switch but that is a sure way to end up surfing the asphalt. The input controls, steering/brakes/gas, should be thought of as dials that you ramp up and ramp down. In braking, you will find that a gradual apply and release action keeps the bike much more stable than an instant on and off. As an example, if you're on the brakes with the bike straight up for 5 seconds, after the first second you might be at 30% braking, after two seconds 80%, at three seconds 100%, after four seconds, 30% and back to 0 at five seconds. The slow application allows the suspension to deal smoothly with the back to front weight transition and give the tire time to bite into the road, giving you more braking power. If you instantly go to 100%, the front tire is being asked to grip harder but it isn't being pushed into the road as hard and you'll probably lock it up. Practice that gradual application until it becomes second nature. Try braking with just your index finger. It will give you all the power you need to do a stop but help you avoid ramping up too quickly. Even when racing, trail braking hard up to the apex, I only use one finger.

    Now, how about doing the above when you're leaned over? It's the same idea, except that now we're balancing the friction needed for turning with the friction we need for braking. Obviously you can't go to 100% when you're on the edge of the tire. How much can you go? That depends on the conditions and your tires. With heated up race slicks you have quite a bit more than you have on cold sport-touring tires. If you're riding on the street, you should never put yourself in the position of having to know exactly where that limit is. You should be riding at a pace that leaves you plenty of room to react and stop before you need to worry about your braking limit at the edge of the tire. On the track, you can explore that limit more safely. But the basic idea is still there: smoothly apply the brake, ramping up to the maximum and ramping back down. Learn to do the same thing with the throttle.

    Once you master smooth inputs, you'll have much better control over your bike and be able to deal with situations as they arise. Modern bikes and tires can do really amazing things if you know how to make smooth inputs to the bike. Practice and learning from experienced riders will get you there.

    Dirk
    Chadwick
    MRA #825

    "You live more for five minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life." - Marco Simoncelli

  2. #2
    Member 2isbetterthan4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Aurora
    Posts
    57

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Awesome reading and info! Thank you!

  3. #3
    Senior Member BC14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Brighton
    Posts
    1,330

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    +1. Good read.
    '16 Kawasaki Ninja 1000
    '12 Kawasaki Concours14 -
    Sold
    '08 Kawasaki Concours14 -
    Sold
    '05 Suzuki SV1000S - Sold
    '07 Kawasaki Vulcan 900 - Sold


  4. #4
    Senior Member Yearly Supporter Tylar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Brighton
    Posts
    902

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Stuff like this is a good idea for this section.

    The usual spring-time influx of newbs will be epic this year. Between popularity, general affordability and (what appears to be the most influential) gas prices.
    -Tylar

    2009: 2009 GSXR 600 *wifey's*
    2010: 2008 YZF-R1


  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,282

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylar View Post
    Stuff like this is a good idea for this section.

    The usual spring-time influx of newbs will be epic this year. Between popularity, general affordability and (what appears to be the most influential) gas prices.
    There's also an entire brigade moving to Carson. Plan on the average percentage of those 3,500 soldiers or so being riders as well.

  6. #6
    Member isaiahchavez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Thornton
    Posts
    63

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Good read and very helpful

  7. #7
    Junior Member Mntntoproc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Posts
    43

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Great read! Appreciate the thoughts and tips you all share!

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    25

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Maybe its just me but using the rear requires finesse most who have never riden at track pace can do. Seen too many riders go down at lean for not modulating/compensating for contact patch. Ever seen that guy with the brake light almost always on? Eventually the friction becomes so great the next time its used especially in a panic the point where the rear wheel locks isn't at the same point anymore.

    I am no expert rider by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying be careful street riding is by far more dangerous than most give it credit.

  9. #9

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Great read! A question: has anyone ever modified the rear brakes so they drag and don't lock up so readily? Last week I was at Danny Walker's American Supercamp which teaches flat track (dirt) turning technique and we had this interesting discussion about road racing and modifying the rear brake so the pads are 1/2 the surface area. A video of Ben Spies was the example. That way the rear brake can be more easily managed slowing into a turn without as much fear of locking it up. Anyone have any experience with this on the track? Thanks.

  10. #10
    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Bailey
    Posts
    2,669

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    I do my rear pads like that. Danny suggest that to me almost 10 years ago. It also helps when you put the rear wheel back on.
    Motorcycle Roadracing Association #29
    President

    MSF
    Rider Coach

  11. #11
    Princess of Prius Sean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    West
    Posts
    6,926

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyDogRacing View Post
    It also helps when you put the rear wheel back on.
    Almost worth doing it, for that reason alone.

  12. #12
    Senior Member matt2778's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    The slow guy in the back
    Posts
    535

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by slo lee View Post
    Great read! A question: has anyone ever modified the rear brakes so they drag and don't lock up so readily? Last week I was at Danny Walker's American Supercamp which teaches flat track (dirt) turning technique and we had this interesting discussion about road racing and modifying the rear brake so the pads are 1/2 the surface area. A video of Ben Spies was the example. That way the rear brake can be more easily managed slowing into a turn without as much fear of locking it up. Anyone have any experience with this on the track? Thanks.
    So you shave down the brake pad itself? Length wise? What do you use?
    If You Can't Ride It or Take it to Bed. It Ain't Worth Having!

  13. #13
    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Bailey
    Posts
    2,669

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    Almost worth doing it, for that reason alone.
    use a bench grinder if you have one. if not, you can rub them on the sidewalk and get the same result, just takes a little longer. you will bevel it so that when the brakes are engaged, only half (or less) of the pad is touching the rotor.
    Last edited by UglyDogRacing; Wed Jun 20th, 2012 at 09:28 AM.
    Motorcycle Roadracing Association #29
    President

    MSF
    Rider Coach

  14. #14
    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Larkspur
    Posts
    6,532

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    But .... as the pads wear, won't you eventually get more and more surface as it becomes parallel again? ie brake-> / | <-rotor becomes ||
    When life throws you curves, aim for the apex
    Current stable:09 Thruxton \ 09 FZ6S2
    Sold List:97 Ninja500R, 03 SV650K3, 01 Ducati 750Sport, 73 CB350/4, 03 F650GSA, 08 Gixxer600, 03 Gixxer600, 91 VFR750F, 09 KLX250, 06 Thruxton 900, 02 VFR800, 08 Spyder RS, 12 Street TripleR, 09 KLX250S, 16 KTMRC390, 10 F650GS
    my Facebook, SpeedShots
    Quote Originally Posted by salsashark View Post
    ... Motorcycles are kind of like Baskin Robbins... You're looking at 31 flavors of ice cream, don't you kind of want to know what they all taste like?...

  15. #15
    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Bailey
    Posts
    2,669

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by asp_125 View Post
    But .... as the pads wear, won't you eventually get more and more surface as it becomes parallel again? ie brake-> / | <-rotor becomes ||
    yes but with the little use they get, it should take some time before they wear down that far.
    Motorcycle Roadracing Association #29
    President

    MSF
    Rider Coach

  16. #16
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Thornton, CO.
    Posts
    3,626

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    I was surprised to read that most n0obs treat the brake as an "on/off switch", especially on a bike where we slow down (brake) much quicker than cars. Even if you don't take the MSF, you learn this the first time you're ever on a bike, the sensitivity of the lever and how it relates to appropriate distances to the car in front of you, etc. A lot of this is common sense afterall, but we all know about the general public and common sense, heh.

    Good info though, thanks for sharing!
    Last edited by Ghosty; Wed Jun 20th, 2012 at 10:16 AM.
    .
    '08 Yamaha R1 (black), mostly stock. Past bikes: '98 VFR-800 (red), '01 CBR-929RR (white/red), '05 Yamaha R6 (white), '08 Yamaha R1 (blue).
    '94 Supra Turbo 6spd. (black), BUILT motor/head, CompTurbo CT43-xx, '69 Dodge Coronet SuperBee tribute, 440/520 SixPack stroker, auto.

  17. #17
    Board Newbie
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Aurora
    Posts
    9

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Good Read

  18. #18
    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Erie
    Posts
    5,871

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    especially on a bike where we slow down (brake) much quicker than cars.
    I don't think that's true at all. Modern cars can brake pretty effectively. Typical braking distances for a sport bike from 60mph are 110-120 feet. A modern Vette or a 911 can do it in under 100 feet. ABS plus the inherent stability of a car means that pretty much any driver can achieve close to the maximum braking power of the vehicle. There are many more variables to deal with on a bike (e.g. weight transfer), so I bet the variation among different riders under identical conditions would be significantly greater than for car drivers. In any case, I think assuming that you can stop significantly faster than the cars around you is flawed.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    --Thomas Jefferson



  19. #19
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Thornton, CO.
    Posts
    3,626

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Noted, but I definitely still assume I can brake WAY faster than cars behind me specifically, especially if they're close. Good rule of thumb, assume they WILL crunch you, if you give it a fistfull of brake-hand and they're closer than they should be.
    .
    '08 Yamaha R1 (black), mostly stock. Past bikes: '98 VFR-800 (red), '01 CBR-929RR (white/red), '05 Yamaha R6 (white), '08 Yamaha R1 (blue).
    '94 Supra Turbo 6spd. (black), BUILT motor/head, CompTurbo CT43-xx, '69 Dodge Coronet SuperBee tribute, 440/520 SixPack stroker, auto.

  20. #20
    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Erie
    Posts
    5,871

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Noted, but I definitely still assume I can brake WAY faster than cars behind me specifically, especially if they're close. Good rule of thumb, assume they WILL crunch you, if you give it a fistfull of brake-hand and they're closer than they should be.
    I definitely agree with that approach.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    --Thomas Jefferson



  21. #21
    Board Newbie
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    9

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    I wonder if the on/off switch is more of a reaction to a specific "pucker" moment, as opposed to a general reaction. A car braking hard in front of me doesn't bother me nearly as much as the person crossing in front of me in an intersection. (running a light, or turning across traffic when it's not safe, etc.) More than once, when i first started riding, i grabbed the lever with more force than i should have.
    --Great info by the way!

  22. #22
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Thornton, CO.
    Posts
    3,626

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by snarky45 View Post
    I wonder if the on/off switch is more of a reaction to a specific "pucker" moment, as opposed to a general reaction.
    Yeah sorry, I went a little off-topic, when looking at the context of the OP.
    .
    '08 Yamaha R1 (black), mostly stock. Past bikes: '98 VFR-800 (red), '01 CBR-929RR (white/red), '05 Yamaha R6 (white), '08 Yamaha R1 (blue).
    '94 Supra Turbo 6spd. (black), BUILT motor/head, CompTurbo CT43-xx, '69 Dodge Coronet SuperBee tribute, 440/520 SixPack stroker, auto.

  23. #23
    Member SNAFU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Castle Pines
    Posts
    50

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Noted, but I definitely still assume I can brake WAY faster than cars behind me specifically, especially if they're close. Good rule of thumb, assume they WILL crunch you, if you give it a fistfull of brake-hand and they're closer than they should be.
    +1
    Now I'm gonna tell you about an accident and I don't want to hear "Act of God".


  24. #24

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    So Jim, how did you decide if you had ground down the brake pad enough. Trial and error? And part two of the question; should I start with 1/2 of the brake pad touching the rotor and ride it on the track and go from there? I'm going to do this to my Ninja 250. Thanks for your input.

Similar Threads

  1. 50cc - Ya Baby!!!!
    By Harry Biker in forum Trips & Touring
    Replies: 494
    Last Post: Thu May 2nd, 2013, 03:17 PM
  2. Proper braking in a turn.
    By 1BadSvt in forum Technique
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: Thu Mar 3rd, 2011, 12:15 PM
  3. PMP News release concerning Turn 10.
    By Ene in forum The Pros
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Tue Dec 11th, 2007, 02:23 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Mon Aug 20th, 2007, 09:32 PM
  5. A lap around CDR - On-board video courtesy of Buddau
    By Anonymous in forum Pics and Videos
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Sun Oct 24th, 2004, 10:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •