Rider Mentoring

[rforsythe]

Where is the sand training on the track? How about the "oh shit I am going to fly off the mountain" rush of blood training? Or the "Im going to slow down even tho the group of 10 is taking off".

It's called trying to pass a rider who checks up and swerving, or having to check up yourself (sand training). It's coming too hot into a corner and learning the right way to react, when there isn't a cliff staring you in the face (oh shit, a mountain!). And it's learning how to catch the pack of riders you just lost over the next turn (where'd my buddies go?). There are other things as well, like how to maintain your focus and control the bike when unexpected things happen, etc. I am absolutely a better street rider because I spend time on the track.

Anyone that thinks they are going to get any thing more from the track than corner practice is misguided.

Anyone who really feels that way about it is missing a lot! Corner practice is a highly useful thing and something you will of course gain from track time, but there are skills that apply to riding in that scenario which carry forward to many aspects of performance riding.

[rybo]

How about the 80+ riders that showed up at the Chicane Day three weeks ago at HPR, majority of them being street riders? They don't have to magically flock to the tracks. They have been going long before you ever started riding and they will be long after.

As the guy who runs those days I have to say that I started doing them for this very reason. I did my first trackday in 2002 just after buying one of my dream bikes. It had exactly 602 miles on it when I took it to the track for the first time. By this time I was on my 3rd street bike and many thousands of miles on the street. I learned a lot about riding on the street at my first trackday.

1) I was pushing way too hard on the street. I was near my own limit out there and as it turns out I was not at all fast. (granted my first trackday instructor was a guy named Aaron Clark, who is moderately fast.)

2) There really are only 4 corner shapes out there. On the track, on the street, everywhere. The track allows you to practice all of those corner shapes lap after lap after lap without the distraction of cars / gravel / wild animals etc.

Jason Pridmore covered these kinds of things when I took his class a couple of years ago out at HPR. If your teaching skills are limited, you might just focus on race lines at the track, but honestly, that's one of the last things I get to when helping street riders at the track. I think if you took a course like Jason's, you'd see just how limited your view of training at the track really is.

+1

I did. Good quote to use to make the point. Anyone wanting track help doesnt need a resume to get it. Show up at the track and ask question. Big difference between the track and the canyons. I dont see anyone getting any real benefit from all this "mentoring" if they are looking to get help with canyon riding and someone wants to show them on the track.

I, for one, appreciate that Dave posted this up regardless of where anyone thinks the idea came from. I've lead a bunch of group rides, run a bunch of trackdays, maybe even done a bit of coaching over the years. I'm not at a point right now where I can do ALL of those things, so I choose to keep offering high quality trackdays in Colorado. Why? Because I think that's where the greatest potential for learning is. I'm not at all surprised to see that the highly experienced riders on here recommend going to the track to practice these kinds of skills.

Now - the choice is really yours. Choose to accept the help that's being offered or don't. Please stop complaining about the fact that the people offering the help aren't doing it "your way". Either learn how to ask for what you need or learn to accept the fact that what you THINK you need and what you ACTUALLY need might be two different things.

Scott

[OUTLAWD]

People seem to be touching on it but here's my $.02...

The track is where you can learn how your bike acts at speed. You become AWARE of what it feels like at more extreme lean angles. You grow MORE accustomed to approaching corners at higher speeds. You BEGIN to learn how to navigate these new situations and instead of panicking, you learn to ride through it and do so enough times so that you gain some familiarity.

Does this teach how to deal with sand in a corner? No, not explicitly. However, it gives you the tools to do so. Instead of being afraid because you're approaching a corner quicker than expected, you say "I'm going too fast for the street, but I've seen this before." You turn in, see the sand, and again instead of freaking out you say "I'll just change my line mid-corner."

No the track is not a substitute for street miles, but it WILL go a LONG way in giving you the tools needed to ride safely. Probably faster than you used to, but more importantly, safer, because you know what to do and have proven to yourself that you're capable of the maneuvers necessary to come through tight situations in one piece.

Troll.

for the love of god...thank you

How about we start a thread for the guys that want to learn the track by teaching them how to ride the canyons?

say wha?

I'd rather learn to go the same speed with more in reserve than faster with less in reserve.

is not the same thing?...it all depends on how fast you want to go

[CaptGoodvibes]

This is a good thread. It could be a great thread. If you don't like it, please stop posting. This should be a place for people to get help not for people to bitch and moan about their fucking ego.

[Ezzzzy1]

Well for what its worth to me the bottom line is, I dont think the people that need "help" in riding the canyons are going to go to the track to get it. People that have never been to the track do not associate "learning" with it, they associate "racing" to it. The people that are speaking up about wanting to learn more are not the problem, yes they are going to become better riders if they take the mentoring but the real problem is the riders that want to learn more and dont but keep going on these rides. Thats what they want to do... Ride canyons in groups. Taking the learning process to them seemed like a natural answer. Plus its rare that a forum vet shows up to a noob organized ride but imagine if they did... Shared some things. Got to meet some of them before they started being asses to them on the boards. I mean thats the reason most people sign up is to meet other riders, right? But when they are put down and criticized they all tend to group together and organize their own rides, then boom. There is your streak of accidents.

I totally agree that learning on a track is valuable, the best guys in the canyons are always the guys that kill it on the track, but you gotta catch that "track bug" or it doesnt make sense. At the same time its crazy to me that apparently everyone thinks that you can not learn the same skills in the canyons with the right direction.

Its the whole chicken and egg thing... Was he a better track rider because of what he learned on the streets or was he a better street rider because of what he learned on the track? Who knows? I dont, but it seems like everyone else does.

Either way if the goal is to help riders thats win/win. Being a noob means a few things and one of them is realizing that having a "different" thought process is ok till someone gets their teeth in ya and the rest of the sharks show up. So respectfully I will keep my opinions to myself. Just know that some of the feedback not posted on this board is that canyon mentoring on the track is a waste of time. I know people that would love the help but are not willing to deal with the "egos" that some of the track guys bring to the table.

So, sorry for the disruption. This is well intended, and should stay that way.

On that note... Leave me out of the rest of this discussion, please.

[daemon]

or that this person is regarded as a good rider and not an ass.

Hey Cathy....Are you talking about me again....LOL

Great idea Bueller.
Far beyond the reach of something i would imagine you volunteering for.
While i consider myself a "fair" rider.
I still take scrutiny and constructive criticism from fellow riders.
So i guess i am on both sides of this one.
I would like to help some of the lesser experienced riders while getting in some more "do as i do" with better riders...

[Bueller]

The track is an additional learning tool not a substitute, and not required. We (track riders) are offering some help in this area if someone is interested.

There have been several posts from people indicating a desire for help and hopefully people are responding to these through PM's. I have contacted on of these peeps and am setting up something for this weekend.

[mtnairlover]

The track is an additional learning tool not a substitute, and not required. We (track riders) are offering some help in this area if someone is interested.

There have been several posts from people indicating a desire for help and hopefully people are responding to these through PM's. I have contacted on of these peeps and am setting up something for this weekend.

Woohoo!

And I remember seeing you at IMI about 5 years ago when I was so very newbish. I still appreciate the advice given.

Hey Cathy....Are you talking about me again....LOL

Ha, ha...nope.

I too, still look for advice and welcome it. Now my learning is in dealing with my extra weight and having to figure out how aggressive I can be without feeling like I'm making my bike slide out from under me. I used to take on mountain corners with ease and almost no fear...these days, I've backed off and feel strange with leaning over. I'm not sure if it is my weight, but I just don't feel the tires are gripping like they used to (although, I don't have the same tires either).

Anyhoo, looks like this thread is filling its purpose.

[Spooph]

sweet, thanks Bueller! I have the answer I needed, now to get the bike up and running 100%

[grim]

I havent chimed on this thread yet but now im gonna...

Im no pro by a long shot nobody really is however there are Definitely people in this forum that know what they are doing And from the people i have ridden with there are people here i want to ride with again and just watch how they move their bike and where they position themselves on the bike. Thats the best way for me to learn is by mimic. Follow their line and let it ingrain in my head.

Vellos, Zach, Swift, and Matty are people i have seen ride before which i have already taken pointers from whether they know it or not.

Bueller i would like to go canyon carving with you sometime to see how you handle your bike and get some tips from you. You can type in the forum all you want about do this do that but im not a book smart learner i have to see it and do it in person. And whether some people know it or not thats how they learn also.

[asp_125]

This: Learning on the track is a controlled environment that will let you practice the correct techniques and skills. But track is not the same as canyons. The fast line on the track may be completely different than say the line needed to take a blind right hander in the canyons with possibility of sand and oncoming traffic. Noobs need to know the difference and ride accordingly.

[rybo]

This: Learning on the track is a controlled environment that will let you practice the correct techniques and skills. But track is not the same as canyons. The fast line on the track may be completely different than say the line needed to take a blind right hander in the canyons with possibility of sand and oncoming traffic. Noobs need to know the difference and ride accordingly.

I respectfully disagree. The line is the same, it's just that the lane width is different. On the track you can use the whole "road" - in the canyons you're limited to your lane width. Outside to Inside to Outside is the ideal line through the corner. Where you choose to make that apex depends on the corner shape. For sure you should make appropriate adjustments for things like sand or oncomming traffic, but the principles remain the same.

[asp_125]

Yes the principles are the same, but on the street I'd take a more conservative strategy. Instead of riding the fastest ideal line you sometimes err on the side of caution. FWIW where I choose my apex would be different if I had a blind corner vs one that I can see through, for the same radius corner. The street would result in a less than ideal line. YMMV

But rather than taking up space in this thread, it just points out areas that both mentor and noobs need to understand what advice they are giving/taking.

[Spooph]

I respectfully disagree. The line is the same, it's just that the lane width is different. On the track you can use the whole "road" - in the canyons you're limited to your lane width. Outside to Inside to Outside is the ideal line through the corner. Where you choose to make that apex depends on the corner shape. For sure you should make appropriate adjustments for things like sand or oncomming traffic, but the principles remain the same.

Although I agree that the line is the same for "fastest", I've learned to ride completely different on the street, for the sake of safety. I think these rules which I've ridden by for a long time should be taken to heart by all newer riders, not because I'm arrogant, but because they've kept me alive and safe in some seriously dangerous situations.

1.) Split your lane into 2 lanes, left and right.
2.) When going around a left-hand turn, ride in the right lane. (since you can see the right side of the road animals and sand should be ID'd easily. This also leaves the most amount of clearance for on-coming cars which might step over the center line)
3.) When going around a right-hand turn, ride in the left lane. (since you can see the left side of the road, oncoming vehicles should be easily ID'd. This leaves the most amount of clearance for sand/animals)
4.) As BWnF puts it - "follow the yellow brick road". Put your front tire a set distance away from either the center yellow line (on right handers), or the white side line (on left handers) and follow the radius of the turn, NOT using out-in-out.
5.) Lean the bike, don't lean your body off the bike. If you have to lean your body off the bike, you're going too fast for the street.
6.) Forget about your brakes. If you have to use your brakes going into a corner, you're going too fast. That should leave plenty of stiction from the tires if you have to panic break for any hazard on the street.

I realize there are many people who don't do this, and by no means am I saying that this is the fastest way up a canyon, but I do think they're some pretty solid rules for less-experienced riders to become comfortable with their tires and grow as safe, quick canyon carvers.

[50sGrl]

As my contribution to the competing discussions of theory:

I have had the benefit of having both varieties of instruction. Many more experienced riders have been kind enough to offer their opinions, insights and tips to me over the last year, and I feel they (and hours of practice) have been responsible for the gains I've made in riding skill. They have taught me how to deal with declining radius and hairpin blind curves where perhaps I wouldn't take the traditional "apex" line, how to judge what kind of blind curve it might be based on how the yellow lines are converging or not, what speeds might be appropriate for a particular surface, etc. Learning these skills in the twisties themselves was invaluable. And frankly, I don't think I would have felt comfortable on the track 6 months or a year ago.

But I felt ready enough to attend the last Chicane day and am planning to attend the next one as well. And I'm ready to learn a whole new set of skills that the track environment offers, including attempting the proper race lines, pushing speed and lean, learning how to trail brake, etc.

So, it's been my experience that each method or manner of instruction can offer immeasurable benefits to a rider wanting help, and I hope more experienced riders from both the "track" and "twisty" camps will consider offering the benefit of their skills to us lesser riders.

[Bueller]

Bueller i would like to go canyon carving with you sometime to see how you handle your bike and get some tips from you. You can type in the forum all you want about do this do that but im not a book smart learner i have to see it and do it in person. And whether some people know it or not thats how they learn also.

It will happen at some point, I usually ride with Diego, and that would be a 2 for 1 Right now though it is racing season or dirt bike riding time. I don't spend much time on the street and when I do it's usually teaching my wonderful wife to ride her 250.

This: Learning on the track is a controlled environment that will let you practice the correct techniques and skills. But track is not the same as canyons. The fast line on the track may be completely different than say the line needed to take a blind right hander in the canyons with possibility of sand and oncoming traffic. Noobs need to know the difference and ride accordingly.

You are thinking always about hitting the fastest line on the track but keep in mind conditions change at very high speeds and in the middle of difficult technical maneuvers. You have to adjust from the perfect line constantly on the track unless you are the only one out there.

I respectfully disagree. The line is the same, it's just that the lane width is different. On the track you can use the whole "road" - in the canyons you're limited to your lane width. Outside to Inside to Outside is the ideal line through the corner. Where you choose to make that apex depends on the corner shape. For sure you should make appropriate adjustments for things like sand or oncomming traffic, but the principles remain the same.

And the width of the track can change with traffic so you need to be able negotiate a turn using a non traditional line, which can be a handfull or more.

So, it's been my experience that each method or manner of instruction can offer immeasurable benefits to a rider wanting help, and I hope more experienced riders from both the "track" and "twisty" camps will consider offering the benefit of their skills to us lesser riders.

Ideally people can have multi-mentorin'

[Cornfed]

This thread seems to have takin a bad turn. I'll be at IMI Thursday the 14th to improve my riding skills and technique. Solo or with a mentor I'm going.

[64BonnieLass]

David (Bueller) was one of my first teachers as a new rider. I'm still not quite sure, after all these years, why he allowed me to ride with him, but he did.

He taught me sooo much, and with patience.

He was so nice and kind as I'm shaking in my boots, he taught lines, and slowness comes first. Slow makes you faster. Terri..."look where you want to go"..."focus on your line". "Focus on your inputs" It worked.

He still hauls ass (in a nice way and productive way), and I will always be behind him learning.

I hope...for the rest of my life I will have that friend to follow.

He teaches a more "gentlemanly" guide to riding which worked for me. Maybe he teaches Naughty differently. But he's a damn good rider. He's been around the block more then once and knows his shit. I respect him with all of my heart to this very day for being one of my many teachers.

A great many men could stand to be as kind and decent of a rider as David is.

[64BonnieLass]

Now - the choice is really yours. Choose to accept the help that's being offered or don't. Please stop complaining about the fact that the people offering the help aren't doing it "your way". Either learn how to ask for what you need or learn to accept the fact that what you THINK you need and what you ACTUALLY need might be two different things.

Scott

Ka-Jizzelll!!!! Not to diminsh his whole post, but this is true.

If you want to REALLY learn how to be better at "anything"...riding, golf, soccor.., then accept you know NOTHING, and just learn. No ego, no other realities. Listening goes a helluva long way. "Listen to the strong riders". "Listen to the softer riders". Mouth shut. Ears open. Listen to everyone around you.

Just learn how to be a better You as a rider.

You may have ridden for 10 years. We all stand to learn, and I believe that is the HEART of any forum anyway. To learn, to gather, to make us better in any way.

[Bueller]

Teri, I am really glad that anything I did helped you with your riding, I have never thought I was a very good teacher but it does definitely help to have a good student. I will be happy to ride with you anytime!
BTW Renata is going to do the next Chicane day so she is pretty excited about it.

[GixxerCarrie]

Yay Bueller...I had actually mentioned this to GuitarX about a girl we know.

My .02. I have learned more from peeps on this board than any book video, and no I don't want to ride the track.
Bike: 07 GSXR 750
Dirt/Street/Canyon(Dont do dirt any more, compound fractured my toe 6 years ago)
Riding: 5 years

2-3 people max. I learned the most when I was following the leader (line, body position, (no target fixation lol) corners, down shifting and throttling through the corner. And from one in the rear (this sounds bad lol) telling me at stops what I needed to correct.

Peeps I can say thanks to are Diego, Daniel, Sully, Jim Wilson, Sash.
Example: Golden gate with just Sully 1 Ride... Down shifting, throttling through corners, and Putting my lipstick on in my side mirror (as Sully would say).
Example: Diego lead, Daniel swept (damn I cant remember the canyon route but know we started at Moco). All Body position, and line.
Those two rides...were some of the most fun I had, as I learned and everyride after that I felt more confident and better about my abilities..That was 3+ years ago now.

I'm willing to sweep on any 2 person rides.

Really glad you did this Bueller, you rock. Hopefully people take people up on it!

[chronicboy]

" If you would like to visit IMI and really learn how to make your bike go around corners it will cost you all of $35 and no real bike prep. And they have fewer rules for rider gear than some of the recent rides posted here. "

what is this, IMI?
i am buying a track bike this month and am gonna be looking for affordable track time

[brennahm]

It's a kart track. However, it's a great learning space because you get to lean your bike without the high speeds involved with full-size road courses.

If you're looking for track time to work on road racing...MIGHT want to look elsewhere.

[enabler118]

Seems like this thread got a bit argumentative, but in any case:

I am a noob rider. I've got about 1500 miles under my belt, (just got my tags yesterday, actually) and just ventured into the canyons for the first time last weekend. It was a blast, but I'd love to get some observation and coaching from a more experienced rider.

That being said, I have this weekend off, so if anybody out there would like to join me on an early ride Saturday or Sunday (this coming weekend) send me a PM! I also want to try and make some friends, since most people I know who ride own cruisers.

I for one hope to learn a lot, so thanks in advance!