Counter-Steering

[dirkterrell]

I am always riding stiff, I have tried to loosen up. I am bad at right hand turns and have to slow WAY the fuck down to make them. I have tried to get as far to the left before the right turn as I can but half the time at completion of my right turn I am either right at the center yellow line and almost into oncoming traffic. I cannot seem to make a right hand turn into the right lane by any means.

Without seeing exactly what you're doing, I suspect you are turning in too early. Try turning in, and apexing, a little later. If you're not trail braking, when you turn in you are committed to a given curve with the speed and lean angle you have. If that curve is placed earlier on the turn at the apex, you'll be wider on the exit. Try going in just a little deeper a see what effect it has. Do things like this in small increments and you'll be able to make the adjustments more safely.

[Grant H.]

Without seeing exactly what you're doing, I suspect you are turning in too early. Try turning in, and apexing, a little later. If you're not trail braking, when you turn in you are committed to a given curve with the speed and lean angle you have. If that curve is placed earlier on the turn at the apex, you'll be wider on the exit. Try going in just a little deeper a see what effect it has. Do things like this in small increments and you'll be able to make the adjustments more safely.

True.

I assumed he was having the same issue on right hand corners that I did. I would wait till way to late.

[gregr]

What I've always noticed is that it's the right handed people who have the most difficulty making right handed turns, especially new riders, mostly because of the strength and dexterity required of the left hand during right turns. Same principle as trying to write with your left hand, etc.

Well since this thread was brought back from the dead, I'll quote an old comment. I have no idea what you're talking about here - what strength and dexterity is required of the left hand for a right hand turn? You can let your left hand go completely floppy if you want to - in fact, I think it's in one of those aforementioned videos that they suggest completely relaxing your left hand/arm for right-hand turns (and vice versa).

[UHATEIT]

Without seeing exactly what you're doing, I suspect you are turning in too early. Try turning in, and apexing, a little later. If you're not trail braking, when you turn in you are committed to a given curve with the speed and lean angle you have. If that curve is placed earlier on the turn at the apex, you'll be wider on the exit. Try going in just a little deeper a see what effect it has. Do things like this in small increments and you'll be able to make the adjustments more safely.

I am trying to be completely off the brake. An issue of my previous crash was panic braking in the turn and standing the bike up. My buddy alwasy says "brake in the straights" so I've been trying not to tap or use the brake at all during my turns for fear of losing it and standing it up.

I found this good info: http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187025
that thread has some pictures and talks about stressing the alignment of your body in a turn, which I need to work on. I actually noticed when I turn right, sometimes I dont lean my body with the bike I will keep it straight rather than leaning with the bike, and that could also be an issue of having a problem turning right.


vs this being me just by natural instincts:

[Wrider]

I'll throw in something I've noticed too. When you're leaning outside of the bike, the bike feels squirrelly and makes it hard to get the confidence to lean your body more than the bike. Once you finally get up the courage to lean your body more than the bike, it makes a huge difference. The bike becomes more stable, your corners become more smooth, you have a ton more control, and it's a whole lot more physically relaxed than leaning outside.

[dirkterrell]

I am trying to be completely off the brake. An issue of my previous crash was panic braking in the turn and standing the bike up. My buddy alwasy says "brake in the straights" so I've been trying not to tap or use the brake at all during my turns for fear of losing it and standing it up.

Braking in a corner is nothing to fear. Being comfortable with it requires practice. But I would start with good body positioning and line choice.

I found this good info: http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187025
that thread has some pictures and talks about stressing the alignment of your body in a turn, which I need to work on.

Turning a motorcycle at speed is a complex process that involves many things, body positioning, line choice, gear choice, eye placement, smooth control inputs, etc. Training and practice will get you there.

[asp_125]

Uhateit, remember what we worked on in Deer Creek? If you get that right forearm/elbow pointed towards the apex, it won't block your body from moving to the inside as much.

That, and an exaggerated head turn/lateral move will naturally move you inside. Notice the head positions in the photos. The top two riders are looking ahead AND sideways, while the sport touring rider is looking ahead.

More like this:

[FZRguy]

I won’t mention the term “counter steering” to a new rider. It is much simpler for a new rider to understand “lean left, go left; lean right, go right.” Sure, it’s initiated at the bar but you should use your whole body to turn a motorcycle….feet, ankles, knees, upper body. Like already mentioned, a light relaxed grip on the bars and where you look is ultra-important. It can take years of practice to be relaxed and “at one” with a motorcycle. That’s one of the many things I like about riding…no matter how good you get, there’s always room for improvement.

[gregr]

I won’t mention the term “counter steering” to a new rider. It is much simpler for a new rider to understand “lean left, go left; lean right, go right.” Sure, it’s initiated at the bar but you should use your whole body to turn a motorcycle….feet, ankles, knees, upper body. Like already mentioned, a light relaxed grip on the bars and where you look is ultra-important. It can take years of practice to be relaxed and “at one” with a motorcycle. That’s one of the many things I like about riding…no matter how good you get, there’s always room for improvement.

Have you watched the twist of the wrist videos (or been to the CA super bike school), and seen the bike with two sets of handlebars? One set is normal, and one set is fixed. If you watch people holding the fixed set (so they can't provide handlebar inputs), you can see them leaning like crazy, but the bike barely turns.

Counter steering is the only way to turn a motorcycle. Given that, I don't see why new riders should not learn this in the first 10 minutes of instruction.

[dirkterrell]

If anyone doubts the effect of counter-steering, do this: when you're cruising down a long straight, put just a little bit of forward pressure on one of the grips and watch what the bike does.

[UglyDogRacing]

We emphasize counter-steering in the BRC, BRC2 and ARC to initiate turns. It's the "press" in the Slow,Look,Press,Roll technique. It's even more important when having to make a quick swerve to avoid an obstacle or hazard. Leaning your body only would not sufficiently turn the bike. Being proficient at counter-steering is as important as braking.

[FZRguy]

Sure, counter steering is what we do, I just think it's a confusing concept for a new rider. A new rider needs instruction on the inputs at the bar, tank, pegs to turn his/her motorcycle...not so much the concept of CS IMO. When I was a new rider, my corner manta was down, down, down.

[UHATEIT]

Uhateit, remember what we worked on in Deer Creek? If you get that right forearm/elbow pointed towards the apex, it won't block your body from moving to the inside as much.

That, and an exaggerated head turn/lateral move will naturally move you inside. Notice the head positions in the photos. The top two riders are looking ahead AND sideways, while the sport touring rider is looking ahead.

More like this:

I've been doing the exaggerated elbow pointing and head turning since the Deer Creek training. I think looking through the turn is especially hard for right turns since you can't really look through it there's always something over there, by the time you see the apex to turn theres minimal space to whip the bike right or you'll cross the center line (I'm referring to right hand 90 degree turns) I also have been keeping my hands off the brake in turns for fear of locking up and standing it up like I did many times. So sometimes if I am fully off the brake and hit the turn too fast I panic, so I slow waaaaay down before the turn basically holding up cars before making the turn, then accelerate like a squid after making the turn so as to not hold people up anymore

[gregr]

Sure, counter steering is what we do, I just think it's a confusing concept for a new rider. A new rider needs instruction on the inputs at the bar, tank, pegs to turn his/her motorcycle...not so much the concept of CS IMO. When I was a new rider, my corner manta was down, down, down.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Counter steering is the ONLY way to turn a motorcycle.

Everything else can help, but it's most certainly not going to get you around a turn sharper than a slow lane change. Especially for a new rider, it needs to become second nature to "push right, go right". Pressing a knee on the tank? Weighting pegs? None of this matters for a new rider, IMHO.

That said, I don't think I'd suggest to a new rider that he steer to the left to go to the right - that _is_ confusing. But suggesting he push on the right bar to go right - that's simple. Arguably unintuitive at first, but not difficult to learn.

[FZRguy]

I don't disagree with what you're saying gregr.

[GMR]

The way I understand it, if I'm going to make a right turn, I push on the right handlebar slightly, which momentarily turns me left but it gives me more momentum and balance to ultimately turn the wheel to the right and lean right and help find the center of gravity, not to mention gives a better line through the apex. Like as in, for a skateboarder to throw a standie, you would at first carve to the left before taking a sharp right where you can initiate the slide with the extra momentum generated because just turning right really hard wouldn't work so well on its own

Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, when I'm dicking around (like just weaving the bike on a straight road) I like to initiate lean with my hips. Is that ok or is that crack?

[gregr]

The way I understand it, if I'm going to make a right turn, I push on the right handlebar slightly, which momentarily turns me left but it gives me more momentum and balance to ultimately turn the wheel to the right and lean right and help find the center of gravity, not to mention gives a better line through the apex. Like as in, for a skateboarder to throw a standie, you would at first carve to the left before taking a sharp right where you can initiate the slide with the extra momentum generated because just turning right really hard wouldn't work so well on its own

Am I understanding this correctly?

That sounds really complicated. The physics are simpler than all that.

In order to turn right, the bike must lean to the right. Pressing on the right bar points the front tire a bit to the left, which makes the bike lean to the right.

[CaptGoodvibes]

That sounds really complicated. The physics are simpler than all that.

In order to turn right, the bike must lean to the right. Pressing on the right bar points the front tire a bit to the left, which makes the bike lean to the right.

It is just this simple. Any more thought on the subject should only be done after the rider is experienced.