Dealer Invoice

[DemonRider]

So we have usually just jumped into a New Car purchase with no real Homework, well right now we are testing waters to see if we can some how figure in a way to buy a specific New Car.. This time though we want to fully and completely prepared. We really wouldn't be doing anything for a few months but want to start preparing now.

1st) What is this best way to obtain the Dealers Invoice price?

Any other advice or experience would be helpful ( I know this is wide open, but hey, you can never have too much info)

[Kristian]

Edmunds.com. Look for TMV.

Also, they give lots of info about all incentives(consumer and dealer).

[vort3xr6]

Go to a dealer. Be honest and ask.

[sag]

what are you looking for? call up heuberger in the springs and talk to a fleet salesman. my brother bought his wrx at dealer invoice because the guy was not on commission and the only thing that mattered to him was a physical sale as 1 car being moved. they have the top subaru sales in the country so subaru kicks them tons of money for being number 1 in volume which is more money all said and done to them than making money on each deal. that was our experience anyways, a few years ago though.

[Cornfed]

Dealer invoice is just another number to negotiate. Yes that is what the manf charged the dealer. However, the dealer gets a lot of kick back from the manf that you wont ever see. So just because you are getting the car and dealer invoice the dealer is still making money on the back side.

Having said that, Im all for the dealer making money. I mean what do you think the mark up is on a loaf of bread, and we dont bitch about that.

The dealer wants to sell cars, be honest, tell them you want to buy a car, tell them what you want to pay, and see what they can do for you. Like any business, they will work to get your business or they wont.

P.S. Spent 6 years in the dealership service dept. I heard things. LOL.

[Turbo99jetta]

use truecar.com

Will make your life easy.

[asp_125]

Do your research, see what the auto brokers are asking for the same car. They typically have less markup than a dealer and is interested in moving metal as well. Figure out what you're willing to pay and like motorcycles, tell the dealer your "out the door" price. How they juggle the numbers in the background is their business.

[kingtut]

Dealer invoice is just another number to negotiate. Yes that is what the manf charged the dealer. However, the dealer gets a lot of kick back from the manf that you wont ever see. So just because you are getting the car and dealer invoice the dealer is still making money on the back side.

Exactly. I've always thought of "invoice" as just another word in their bag of tricks. I agree though- people have to make money and dealers are no different.

There's no scientific method for the following, but this is what I do. Chat with the car salesman for awhile (car specifics, test drive, etc.), ask what kind of deal they can give me, then subtract $5k. Gives me a number to shoot for

[DemonRider]

We're not out to "jack" anyone we just want to make a great deal. We are trying to do our "Homework" and get all information this time to make a fare deal for everyone involved.
I have to start somewhere and I've heared that finding the Dealers Invoice cost is a good place to start, then work up from there. I must admit that I am a "Virgin" when it comes to buying New cars, and bikes for that matter. Nikki will spend the summer riding the 250R to and from work after a little more training and the MSF again on the 28th so we have some time.
When buying cars in the past my wife and I have always payed "Sticker" price, we have never done any "negotiating" / "haggling" as a matter of fact if I remember correctly, we have always paid OVER sticker price on the three New Cars we have purchased in the past. This time I kinda wanna look into it and Do some homework and not rush into it as we have done in the past.
With all the bad mojo we have had the last few months and Nikki's car still being down until the legal stuff is finished (oh, AND as we have recently found out, we are unexpectedly Expecting our third child) we wanna save a little money anywhere we can.

So I'll take all the suggestions and info I can, Thanks everyone I'm looking through Edmunds now

[AOK303]

post the car's you are looking for and im sure peopel will be able to tell you the price

And congrat's on the Third!!!!

[sag]

if youre going to be buying new from a major dealer then you best be trying to jack them because they are going to jack you regardless of what you pay :P

pay careful attention and ask lots of questions so you are clear on the taxes part. i negotiated a deal for a truck in denver, gave them my final out the door all taxes included price and they finally accepted after a day. bring truck home to ft collins and go to get plates and voila! 400 bucks in city taxes due on it! the lady informed me they couldnt collect being in denver and me in ft collins and just neglected to tell me they couldnt collect all the taxes despite my offer being "all taxes included" and that it happens all the time. shame on them for not explicitly telling me while signing papers and shame on me for not knowing

[DemonRider]

She is sticking with Hyundai and wants the 2013 Hyundai Elantra Limited Sedan .. We have heared that they may have the GT version again for 2013 but there's no info in it yet.

[~Barn~]

Edmunds.com. Look for TMV.

Also, they give lots of info about all incentives(consumer and dealer).

[/thread ]

[Ghost]

Do your research, see what the auto brokers are asking for the same car. They typically have less markup than a dealer and is interested in moving metal as well. Figure out what you're willing to pay and like motorcycles, tell the dealer your "out the door" price. How they juggle the numbers in the background is their business.

Few problems with brokers--

1. Most are ex-salesmen, so the idea that they're "better" or more honest just isn't true. They're after their flat just as much as any salesman is after a commission. Thus, if you ask them "is this a good deal" then they'll tell you "Yes" just to get the sale and the flat fee (commission) from it.

2. Brokers can't negotiate a better price than any individual can on their own without a broker. A broker may or may not go through a "regular" dealership that they have a relationship with, and they may or may not go through the Fleet Sales Manager, but either way, dealerships don't have any desire or obligation to sell a car to a broker for less than they would to any other individual.

3. Brokers don't own the (New) cars they sell, they are simply a paid middle-man that negotiates on behalf of an individual with a dealership for a fee, as such you will often pay *more* if you use a broker than if you just negotiate on your own (assuming you know what you're doing).

When I was the internet sales manager, I routinely had to pencil "triple-net loser" deals to match competitor prices for individuals with competitive quotes from other dealerships. These are the best deals you can get since the dealership is making $0 to Negative profit on that particular deal.

However, when I dealt with a broker I would never do a triple-net deal since I didn't have to. All the broker needs to do is tell the customer it's the best price there is, and they'll believe him since he's not the "evil" salesman.

For brokers I'd typically write them up at Invoice, period. They didn't care since it wasn't their money, so Invoice was "good enough" for them, and it kept the dealership happy enough to continue to deal with them on an ongoing basis--making life easier for the broker.

Then, the broker would take my Invoice deal, add their brokerage fee to it, and sell it to the customer for a "deal" that:
a) anyone else could have gotten since most of the time any car can be bought for invoice (rare cars/trims/limited editions being the exception)
b) was now Invoice + Broker's Fees instead of simply the Invoice price I would have sold it for.

So, all in all, brokers tend to be a waste of money--money you spent simply to not do the negotiation on your own. In no way can they get a "better" deal than anyone else can.

As to finding Invoice Pricing--it's all over the web. Edmunds.com has it, others have it, and it's not hidden nor hard to find.

As to $5,000 off MSRP--good luck with that.

Invoice is Invoice, you can see the difference between Invoice and MSRP clearly stated on Edmunds or other sites, and very few cars have $5k in markup in them any more.

Yes, long ago when times were good cars easily had $5k or MORE in profit, but in this economy the manufacturers have squeezed the margins to keep the MSRP down and their own profits up--thus the gap between Invoice and MSRP has shrunk significantly.

Anything Below Invoice is dipping into Holdback and/or other incentives that the manufacturer may or may NOT have placed on that particular vehicle if they really want to push sales and/or it's a dead trim/model or holdover, etc., but there's very little reason for a dealership to dip into HB unless they really *have* to move that particular unit and HB isn't typically something dealerships will negotiate.

So, a "good deal" always depends on expectations, but Invoice is typically a very fair deal for most cars/trucks out there--and you can negotiate for Invoice without paying a broker to do it for you and then charging you for the privilege...

Edmunds.com has MSRP and Invoice and "TMV" which is what they (Edmunds) claims most cars of that type/trim are going for in your area.
If TMV is $29,500 don't expect to get the car for $24,000.

If you need help just PM me w/ your questions. I'm not in the business anymore but I still know how it works.

[Frankie675]

Looks like you're already on the right track with preparing early and obtaining information.
Just remember that no one is going to make you buy a car. Feel free to start going to dealerships and talking to them now. If they presure you into anything just leave. Tell them exactly what you're looking for and that you're doing your research.

And don't set a I've-got-to-buy-a-car-by-this-date. If you find a killer deal next month jump on it. If you don't find anything over the next couple months then keep waiting because you'll definitely regret buying something then finding it cheaper a week later.

And get pre-approved it you're going to be financing!

[Cornfed]

Anything Below Invoice is dipping into Holdback and/or other incentives that the manufacturer may or may NOT have placed on that particular vehicle if they really want to push sales and/or it's a dead trim/model or holdover, etc., but there's very little reason for a dealership to dip into HB unless they really *have* to move that particular unit and HB isn't typically something dealerships will negotiate.

Ya thats what I meant, holdback. I forgot what they called it.

[vort3xr6]

The dealership group I work for has a Hyundai dealership. Just let me know when the time comes and I will make sure you get a fair deal.

[Ghost]

Ya thats what I meant, holdback. I forgot what they called it.

Yep. It's usually 2-3% of either MSRP or Invoice (varies by manufacturer). Some manufacturers don't offer their dealers Holdback, so it doesn't exist.

HB is a manufacturer offset for the dealer's cost of flooring/financing the vehicle. If the car's just arrived, the dealer gets to keep all of the holdback as instant profit.

At 45 days he gets to keep 50% of it. Since most dealers rotate their inventory in less than 90 days, they usually get to keep some of the holdback payment.
--Dealer Trades can mess this up since usually the dealership with the car the other dealership wants will negotiate for a car with more/better holdback than their own.

If a car has been sitting on the lot for 90 days or more, all of the potential holdback profits have been wasted on interest payments that the dealer makes to floor plan (finance) the vehicle.

After 90 days, the dealership has to dip into its own profits to keep the car in inventory.


Note--if you Order a vehicle then HB is PURE profit since the dealer didn't have to finance or floor plan the vehicle.



But, beyond HB there's also:

Advertising credits

Flooring assistance

Floor interest reserve

Floor plan allowance

Transfer balance

Wholesale reserve

Wholesale credits

So, knowing "exactly" what the dealership paid isn't simple or easy--and even the dealership itself may not fully know what they paid and/or how much profit they made on that particular vehicle until the end of the month comes when they've done all the calculations for every cost/credit/offset/fee for that particular vehicle.

But, we're also talking small(ish) amounts of money here, a few hundred dollars one way or the other.
The days of $5k in "hidden" markup just don't exist anymore.

[gsxr6]

again. Take a look at True car.com. Should make your life very easy. I work for a dealership group and know the internet manager at the #1 hyuandai store in Colorado. Truecar.com will make your life very easy.

Also, don't waste your time dealing with a broker. They buys cars from us, so you can always get a better deal with a dealership.

[asp_125]

Now, all of this probably applies to NEW cars. If you're talking USED (even barely used), the margins are much greater. Dealers and brokers often pick up trade-ins at low wholesale prices, and even with the "reconditioning fee", they make thousands of dollars on the average used car.

[Ghosty]

Damn, tons of good info I never knew about.

*subscribed*

[Ghost]

Now, all of this probably applies to NEW cars. If you're talking USED (even barely used), the margins are much greater. Dealers and brokers often pick up trade-ins at low wholesale prices, and even with the "reconditioning fee", they make thousands of dollars on the average used car.

Not necessarily. Since the Cash 4 Clunkers and the general downturn in the economy, used car prices--even at auction--have risen significantly.

Yes, dealerships and brokers *want* to make as much as possible on a used car, and if it's a Trade In they will hit you with a super low number that's "back of book", but that doesn't mean that they'll get it for that low of a price.

And, again, auction prices are up across the board, so while $3-4k is the goal for most used cars, it's not always possible.

Add in costs for CPO certification, and (actual) reconditioning and the margins on used can be thinner than the equivalent new car.

And, used cars are more of a crap shoot.

Maybe the dealership or broker got it for a steal, maybe they didn't. Unlike a new car, the consumer never knows what the dealership/broker actually paid for the car and since it's condition isn't new you never know what you're actually getting--it may pass all inspections and look nice and still be an out-of-warranty POS that costs you more in the long-run than a new car.

OR, it could be the bargain of the century. Never know until you buy it...

[Jesterbass21]

Dealer invoice is just another number to negotiate. Yes that is what the manf charged the dealer. However, the dealer gets a lot of kick back from the manf that you wont ever see. So just because you are getting the car and dealer invoice the dealer is still making money on the back side.

Having said that, Im all for the dealer making money. I mean what do you think the mark up is on a loaf of bread, and we dont bitch about that.

The dealer wants to sell cars, be honest, tell them you want to buy a car, tell them what you want to pay, and see what they can do for you. Like any business, they will work to get your business or they wont.

P.S. Spent 6 years in the dealership service dept. I heard things. LOL.

/\ sooooo not true /\


I wish it were because it would allow me to make some money.

If you truley want a good deal and take it from me "a car salesman" figure out what you want in a car. Figure out what you absolutly need and just the things you want. DON'T waste your salesmans time. Thats how they get paid. dont him haw around with them for hours and then say I want your invoice price.

All manufactures give discounts to "special" people throught the U.S. for specialised plans. Those ,cornfed, are what the dealership gets a kickback from. Tell the Dealer your talking to that you will pay 1,000 over invoice less rebates and they will grab you the invoice.

But what do I know I have only been in the buisness a few years.

[DriverDave]

Check out this video.....
http://www.wimp.com/buycar/

Don't know anyone that has tried it, but sounds like it could work.