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Thread: yet another school shooting....

  1. #145
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    Did you even know about thise actions taken to fix things? So again you already have what you want.
    I'm just going by this snippit, if it's incorrect then my bad, maybe outdated:

    Law enforcement has also told me that the single most effective thing we can do to prevent gun violence would be to require all purchasers for all gun sales to undergo a background check. Then-Gov. Tim Kaine appointed a panel of experts to investigate all aspects of the massacre and report back their recommendations. Recommendation VI-2 stated, "Virginia should require background checks for all firearms sales." Sadly, that hasn't happened, and gun deaths now outpace motor vehicle deaths in my state.
    So if there are states left that do not require background check (I have no idea if and how many), then that what's I think would be good progress, at least a start. If it was up to me, I'd say eff gunshow sales retailers, do everything through FFL's and require full background checks, and that isn't a strange radical socialist request. If it was up to the NRA, you could buy guns and ammo at 7-11.
    Last edited by Ghosty; Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 01:33 PM.
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  2. #146
    Say what again... Site Admin rforsythe's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    So if there are states left that do not require background check (I have no idea if and how many), then that what's I think would be good progress, at least a start. If it was up to me, I'd say fuck gunshow sales retailers, do everything through FFL's and require full background checks, and that isn't a strange radical socialist request.
    I don't have a problem with requiring checks at gun shows. As has been pointed out, that already happens in a number of states. As for other checks, any time you buy a new gun from an FFL dealer, you put a check in - that is a federal requirement for them to be an FFL.

    If it was up to the NRA, you could buy guns and ammo at 7-11.
    If it's a private seller and you're in the parking lot, you can already at least in CO.

    Perhaps one acceptable compromise would be to fill out a background check online, minus any gun serials. If you're eligible, a private seller could log in and check your "eligibility report" through a federal site to ensure you should be able to own a gun. No S/N's are being exchanged so no tracking of guns, people can still buy and sell, and it *may* help keep them away from people who shouldn't have them. I'd also support laws mandating locked storage any time a gun is kept in the same location as children under 12 or someone with a history of mental instability, regardless of age. Said person should not have the combination or key.

    Look, something is coming that is going to restrict what we can do. AWB's, background checks, registration, I dunno, but there is no way it will remain as it is today. Gun owners either entertain the conversation and determine a reasonable compromise, or they will be outvoted by emotional people.

    My main concerns (as a responsible gun owner and gun rights advocate) are weapons of any kind getting in the hands of someone who shouldn't have them. So close the legal channels allowing it and prevent people from making them accessible otherwise, without blocking people like me from owning/shooting whatever I want to. The compromise should affect the ones committing the crimes, without unreasonably restricting the rights of others.

    To think no change will happen is just plain denial. Get over it and work to find a common ground that still lets you buy and shoot what you like.
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  3. #147
    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Funny, I seem to read that the guns used in this case were all purchased legally and correctly by someone who by all accounts, had the right to have them as an avid gun collector. Sadly she is dead now and can't comment. So perhaps by extension, the background check needs to include records of any family members who are mentally unstable, on mood altering meds etd. Let's see how well that works out. Where are the laws if a gun owner fails to adequately restrict access to weapons AFTER the sale is completed?
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  4. #148
    Senior Member Snowman's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Always a big fan when rednecks panic and start digging up their buried mason jars to boost the local economy...

    The Sandy Hook Effect: Gun Sales Rise as Stocks Fall

    "Anecdotal evidence suggests that gun enthusiasts are moving quickly to purchase new weapons – even as the prospect of tougher laws has sent the shares of several gun manufacturers plunging.

    Private equity firm Cerberus says it will sell its investment in gun-maker, Freedom Group, in response to the elementary school shooting in Connecticut last week, with CNBC's Mary Thompson.
    A spike in gun sales across the country started with President Barack Obama's reelection. Observers note that may be associated with the traditionally contentious relationship the Democratic Party has with the gun rights lobby. (Read more: Gun Sales Surge: An Obama Bounce?) Some Second Amendment advocates fear the Connecticut tragedy will provide more impetus to efforts to restrict gun ownership.

    Yet in places like Colorado, Ohio and Oregon, local reports have noted a surge in gun purchases occurring immediately after the Sandy Hook tragedy."

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  5. #149
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by rforsythe View Post
    I don't have a problem with requiring checks at gun shows. As has been pointed out, that already happens in a number of states. As for other checks, any time you buy a new gun from an FFL dealer, you put a check in - that is a federal requirement for them to be an FFL.
    Yes, I'm flexible in my vew if the gun show dealers are FFL, and require background checks. This would require the gunshow venue to provide enough adequate and secure telcom services for these folks. Side-note, the last Tanner I went to, an actual gun WENT OFF. You never saw a warehouse full of people go quiet SO FAST. Wow, interesting, I must say... *facepalm*

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    And fuck CheaperThanDirt.com, price gouging. They've increased prices on theirs to $60 a pop! What jackasses.
    Last edited by Ghosty; Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 02:51 PM.
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  6. #150
    Senior Member TFOGGuys's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Yes, I'm flexible in my vew if the gun show dealers are FFL, and require background checks. This would require the gunshow venue to provide enough adequate and secure telcom services for these folks.

    RUN ON 30round MAGAZINES. Hahahaa, you knew this was coming! Already out of stock, as of today anyway. Magpul black 30round 5.56/.223 Magazines with window. P-Mag/MOE, some are gen2, some gen3...

    BravoCompany
    SurplessAmmo
    GanderMountain Online
    PatriotOutfitters

    In stock, YLMV: (your luck may vary...)

    MidwayUSA (limit TWO mags per person)
    LaRue Tactical
    Intense Tactical
    Spikes Tactical
    OfficerStore
    MississippiAutoArms
    RockRiverArms (no window version)

    And fuck CheaperThanDirt.com, price gouging. They've increased prices on theirs to $60 a pop! What jackasses.
    CtD has removed all guns from their website. Plus, they are gouging on what accessory inventory they still have. Jackasses.
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  7. #151
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    You better believe you aint gonna be able to buy these things anymore, LOL!:

    http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/M16-B...20m16%20xv.htm

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  8. #152
    Senior Member TFOGGuys's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    You better believe you aint gonna be able to buy these things anymore, LOL!:

    http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/M16-B...20m16%20xv.htm

    I've never seen one that would run. those jam-o-matic pieces of shit make an AR into the safest rifle in history...
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  9. #153
    Say what again... Site Admin rforsythe's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by asp_125 View Post
    Funny, I seem to read that the guns used in this case were all purchased legally and correctly by someone who by all accounts, had the right to have them as an avid gun collector. Sadly she is dead now and can't comment. So perhaps by extension, the background check needs to include records of any family members who are mentally unstable, on mood altering meds etd. Let's see how well that works out. Where are the laws if a gun owner fails to adequately restrict access to weapons AFTER the sale is completed?
    Hence my proposal that if you live in a home with someone of questionable mental stability (or, say in the case of the Sandy shooter, a lifetime of documented mental illness), you be required to keep your weapons locked in a gun cabinet or safe, in such a way that they do not have the combination or key to open it.

    The shooter couldn't buy them legally (apparently refused the b/g check -- I can only theorize he would have failed it), so he went to the one place he knew he'd have access to whatever he wanted - mommy's guns. Like I said before, locking them up properly and not giving him access would have prevented this whole thing.
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  10. #154
    Senior Member Ezzzzy1's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    www.botachtactical.com still has pmags and cheap. FYI
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  11. #155
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    CNN news alert just now: NRA first statement: "We are prepared to help make sure this never happens again."

    More to come...

    I like it, but Obama needs to not pander to his socialist Dem far-lefties in congress, and WORK WITH LA'PIERRE, or at least Republican gun-advocates too.
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  12. #156
    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by rforsythe View Post
    Hence my proposal that if you live in a home with someone of questionable mental stability (or, say in the case of the Sandy shooter, a lifetime of documented mental illness), you be required to keep your weapons locked in a gun cabinet or safe, in such a way that they do not have the combination or key to open it.

    The shooter couldn't buy them legally (apparently refused the b/g check -- I can only theorize he would have failed it), so he went to the one place he knew he'd have access to whatever he wanted - mommy's guns. Like I said before, locking them up properly and not giving him access would have prevented this whole thing.

    Live with someone of questionable stability ... or have a best friend (of questionable stability) ... or relative.. or next door neighbor... any of whom can gain access to a house whether or not you happen to be home.

    Where does it stop? Why not require ALL gun owners to lock up their guns? Keep guns and ammo in separate locations.

    Why not treat/ get rid of/ isolate the people who are unstable? I would think the pro gun lobby would be first to get behind that idea, rather than jump through hoops to own a gun.
    Last edited by asp_125; Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 02:58 PM.
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  13. #157
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Makes home defense a pain in the ass if you can't afford those nifty fingerprint/handprint electric handgun safe gizmos...
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  14. #158
    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    i see the talk of dealing with the mentally ill lasted long. lol
    'xactly.. I don't care what you do to the retards, just don't take away mah guns! Cus this is 'merica! Now you see why nothing's going to get done? Same old song and dance.. every frickin time. When is someone going to step up and say enough?
    Last edited by asp_125; Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 03:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by salsashark View Post
    ... Motorcycles are kind of like Baskin Robbins... You're looking at 31 flavors of ice cream, don't you kind of want to know what they all taste like?...

  15. #159
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    NRA Press release:

    "The National Rifle Association of America is made up of 4 million moms and dads, sons and daughters and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown.

    "Out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency, we have given time for mourning, prayer and a full investigation of the facts before commenting.

    "The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.

    "The NRA is planning to hold a major news conference in the Washington, D.C., area on Friday, December 21."
    Last edited by Ghosty; Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 08:40 PM.
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  16. #160
    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    We already have a solution.. guns encoded to their owner's palm print.

    http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/4673...kyfall-trailer
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  17. #161
    Senior Member Ezzzzy1's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    I really surprised (no im not) by the people that think anyone on here is saying that guns need to go away. Anyone with a brain knows thats not even humanly possible in America So crazy how wicked fast gun loons jump to that conclusion anytime someone says anything about guns.

    What I can appreciate is the people that are willing to say that this at least need to be looked at.

    I would bet that the NRA will fold on a few issues quick just to save the "guns". IE large capacity clips etc.
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  18. #162
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by asp_125 View Post
    Where does it stop? Why not require ALL gun owners to lock up their guns? Keep guns and ammo in separate locations.
    IIRC, in California, you can be held liable if someone gains access to your gun and it does not have a trigger lock. Personally, I think a trigger lock is too much of a handicap but a discrete one-gun safe bolted just out of sight is simultaneously, as comprehensive and more handy than a gun locked at the trigger.
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  19. #163
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    you could always use your gun to hit them with it.
    The one time in my life I needed a gun, all I had was a Mag-Light.
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  20. #164
    Senior Member TFOGGuys's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by asp_125 View Post
    Live with someone of questionable stability ... or have a best friend (of questionable stability) ... or relative.. or next door neighbor... any of whom can gain access to a house whether or not you happen to be home.

    Where does it stop? Why not require ALL gun owners to lock up their guns? Keep guns and ammo in separate locations.

    Why not treat/ get rid of/ isolate the people who are unstable? I would think the pro gun lobby would be first to get behind that idea, rather than jump through hoops to own a gun.
    Or we could be like the UK was before they pretty much banned all private ownership of hand guns and rifles. You can "own" a gun, but it has to be stored at a "gun club". You can't remove them from the club's premises, you can't use it for hunting or self protection, you can't sell it to anyone other than the club, you can't possess ammo outside the club. The only time you are allowed to use it is for target practice or competitive events.

    Of course, when the UK went for the full on ban on handguns, this made them very convenient to confiscate. except from the criminals, who never paid any attention to the law in the first place.
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  21. #165
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by TFOGGuys View Post
    Or we could be like the UK was before they pretty much banned all private ownership of hand guns and rifles. You can "own" a gun, but it has to be stored at a "gun club". You can't remove them from the club's premises, you can't use it for hunting or self protection, you can't sell it to anyone other than the club, you can't possess ammo outside the club. The only time you are allowed to use it is for target practice or competitive events.

    Of course, when the UK went for the full on ban on handguns, this made them very convenient to confiscate. except from the criminals, who never paid any attention to the law in the first place.
    And they have had 3 school shootings in the last 30 years.

    Here's our list in the last 30 years:
    Deer Creek Middle School shooting Littleton, Colorado April 7 1982 1
    Parkway South Middle School shooting Manchester, Missouri January 20 1983 2 Suicide
    Goddard Middle School shooting Goddard, Kansas January 21 1985 1
    Portland Junior High School shooting Portland, Connecticut December 10 1985 1
    Pine Forest Senior High School Fayetteville, North Carolina May 6 1986
    Pinellas Park High School Largo, Florida February 11 1988 1
    Hubbard Woods School shooting Winnetka, Illinois May 20 1988 1
    Atlantic Shores Christian School shooting Chesapeake, Virginia December 16 1988 1
    Cleveland School massacre Stockton, California January 17 1989 6 Suicide
    University of Iowa shooting Iowa City, Iowa November 1 1991 6 Suicide
    Lindhurst High School shooting Olivehurst, California May 1 1992 4
    Palo Duro High School shooting Amarillo, Texas September 11 1992 0
    Berkner High School shooting Richardson, Texas November 6 1992 1
    Edward Tilden High School shooting Chicago, Illinois November 20 1992 1
    Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting Great Barrington, Massachusetts December 14 1992 2
    East Carter High School shooting Grayson, Kentucky January 18 1993 2
    Fairfax High School shooting Los Angeles, California January 21 1993 1
    Amityville High School shooting Amityville, New York February 1 1993 1
    Reseda High School shooting Reseda, California February 22 1993 1
    Wauwatosa West High School shooting Wauwatosa, Wisconsin December 1 1993 1
    Central Middle School shooting Sheridan, Wyoming September 17 1993 1
    Margaret Leary Elementary School shooting Butte, Montana April 12 1994 1
    Grimsley High School shooting Greensboro, North Carolina October 12 1994 1
    Wickliffe Middle School shooting Wickliffe, Ohio November 7 1994 1
    Blackville-Hilda High School shooting Blackville, South Carolina October 12 1995 2
    Richland High School shooting Lynnville, Tennessee November 15 1995 2
    Frontier Middle School shooting Moses Lake, Washington February 2 1996 3
    Hamilton High School shooting Scottdale, Georgia February 2 1996 1
    San Diego State University shooting San Diego, California August 15 1996 3
    Hetzel Union Building shooting State College, Pennsylvania September 17 1996 1
    Bethel Regional High School shooting Bethel, Alaska February 19 1997 2
    Pearl High School shooting Pearl, Mississippi October 1 1997 2
    Heath High School shooting Paducah, Kentucky December 1 1997 3
    Westside Middle School shooting Jonesboro, Arkansas March 24 1998 5
    Parker Middle School dance shooting1 Edinboro, Pennsylvania April 24 1998 1
    Thurston High School shooting Springfield, Oregon May 21 1998 2
    Columbine High School massacre Littleton, Colorado April 20 1999 15 Suicide
    Heritage High School shooting Conyers, Georgia May 20 1999 0
    Fort Gibson Middle School shooting Fort Gibson, Oklahoma December 6 1999 0
    Buell Elementary School shooting Mount Morris Township, Michigan February 29 2000 1
    Lake Worth Middle School shooting Lake Worth, Florida May 26 2000 1
    University of Arkansas shooting Fayetteville, Arkansas August 28 2000 2 [46][47][48]
    Santana High School shooting Santee, California March 5 2001 2
    Granite Hills High School shooting El Cajon, California March 22 2001 0
    Martin Luther King, Jr. High School shooting Manhattan, New York City, New York January 15 2002 0
    Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia January 16 2002 3
    University of Arizona Nursing School shooting Tucson, Arizona October 28 2002 4
    John McDonogh High School shooting New Orleans, Louisiana April 14 2003 1
    Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings Red Lion, Pennsylvania April 24 2003 2
    Case Western Reserve University shooting Cleveland, Ohio May 9 2003 1 [57]
    Rocori High School shooting Cold Spring, Minnesota September 24 2003 2
    Columbia High School shooting East Greenbush, New York February 9 2004 0
    Fairleigh Dickinson University shooting Florham Park, New Jersey April 4 2004 [58]
    Randallstown High School shooting Randallstown, Maryland May 7 2004 0
    Red Lake Senior High School massacre Red Lake, Minnesota March 21 2005 8 Suicide
    Campbell County High School shooting Jacksboro, Tennessee November 8 2005 1
    Pine Middle School shooting Reno, Nevada March 14 2006 0
    Essex Elementary School shooting[59] Essex, Vermont August 24 2006 2
    Orange High School shooting Hillsborough, North Carolina August 30 2006 1
    Platte Canyon High School shooting Bailey, Colorado September 27 2006 2
    Weston High School shooting Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29 2006 2
    Amish school shooting Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania October 2 2006 6
    Henry Foss High School shooting Tacoma, Washington January 3 2007 1
    Herbert Henry Dow High School Midland, Michigan March 8 2007 1
    University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, North Carolina March 24 2007 0[60]
    University of Washington shooting Seattle, Washington April 2 2007 2
    Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia April 16 2007 33 Suicide
    Delaware State University shooting Dover, Delaware September 21 2007 1
    SuccessTech Academy shooting Cleveland, Ohio October 10 2007 1
    Louisiana Technical College shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana February 8 2008 3
    Mitchell High School shooting Memphis, Tennessee February 11 2008 0
    E.O. Green School shooting Oxnard, California February 12 2008 1
    Northern Illinois University massacre DeKalb, Illinois February 14 2008 6
    Davidson High School Shooting Mobile, Alabama March 9 2008 1
    Central High School shooting Knoxville, Tennessee August 21 2008 1
    Henry Ford High School shooting Detroit, Michigan October 16 2008 1
    2008 University of Central Arkansas shootings Conway, Arkansas October 27 2008 2
    Dillard High School shooting Fort Lauderdale, Florida November 12 2008 1 [61]
    Henry Ford Community College shooting Dearborn, Michigan April 10 2009 2
    Hampton University Hampton, Virginia April 26 2009 0
    Covina High School shooting Covina, California April 30 2009 0[62]
    Wesleyan University1 Middletown, Connecticut May 1 2009 1
    Canandaigua Academy shooting Canandaigua, New York May 5 2009 1
    Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts May 18 2009 1 [63]
    Larose-Cut Off Middle School shooting Larose, Louisiana May 18 2009 1
    Skyline College shooting San Bruno, California September 2 2009 0
    Atlanta University Center Atlanta, Georgia September 3 2009 1 [64]
    Deer Valley High School shooting Antioch, California September 16 2009 0
    Northern Virginia Community College Woodbridge, Virginia December 8 2009 0
    Discovery Middle School Madison, Alabama February 5 2010 1[65]
    University of Alabama in Huntsville Huntsville, Alabama February 12 2010 3[66]
    Deer Creek Middle School Littleton, Colorado February 23 2010 0[67]
    Birney Elementary School Tacoma, Washington February 26 2010 1[68]
    Ohio State University Columbus, Ohio March 9 2010 2[69]
    Belleville Township HS East Belleville, Illinois August 17 2010 1[70]
    University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas September 28 2010 1[71]
    Alisal High School Salinas, California October 1 2010 1[72][73]
    Mid-Atlantic Christian University Elizabeth City, North Carolina October 3 2010 1[74]
    Kelly Elementary School Carlsbad, California October 8 2010 0*[75][76]
    Marinette High School Marinette, Wisconsin November 29 2010 1[77]
    Millard South High School shooting Omaha, Nebraska, United States January 5 2011 2[78]
    Martinsville West Middle School Martinsville, Indiana March 25 2011 0[79]
    Worthing High School Houston, Texas March 30 2011 1[80]
    Ross Elementary School Houston, Texas April 19 2011 0[81]
    San Jose State University San Jose, California May 10 2011 3[82]
    Pearl City Middle School Pearl City, Hawaii May 23 2011 1[83]
    Cape Fear High School shooting Fayetteville, North Carolina October 24 2011 0[84]
    2011 Virginia Tech shooting Blacksburg, Virginia December 8 2011 2 [85]
    Walpole Elementary School Walpole, New Hampshire February 10 2012 1 (injury) [86]
    Chardon High School shooting Chardon, Ohio February 27 2012 3
    Oikos University shooting Oakland, California April 2 2012 7
    Perry Hall High School Perry Hall, Maryland August 27 2012 1
    Normal Community High School Normal, Illinois September 7 2012 0
    Stillwater Junior High School Stillwater, Oklahoma September 26 2012 1 (suicide)
    Bennion Junior High School Taylorsville, Utah November 29 2012 1 ( suicide) [87]
    Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting Newtown, Connecticut December 14 2012 27 Suicide
    Last edited by laspariahs; Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 04:45 PM.

  22. #166
    Senior Member TFOGGuys's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by asp_125 View Post
    We already have a solution.. guns encoded to their owner's palm print.

    http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/4673...kyfall-trailer
    And what happens when you get shot in your strong hand and have to fire the gun with your other hand?

    I realize you're being facetious, but like many other "safety" options, biometrics are not the answer, nor are secret combinations, nor RFID chips. The answer is criminal control, not gun control.
    Thanks, Jim
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  23. #167
    Senior Member TFOGGuys's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by laspariahs View Post
    And they have had 3 school shootings in the last 30 years.
    And how many knife murders?

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...hildren-372713

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ders-per-week/

    The latest figures show knife deaths have almost doubled in the last 30 years. The total is up 58 on two years ago and 80 more than in the last year of Tory rule. There are also 60 non-fatal knife crimes daily, with 22,000 recorded in the year.”
    Guns are the instrument of choice for these monsters. However, if they were not available, they would find other means. Unless one intends to reduce the human race to running around naked save for the bubble wrap encasing their arms and legs, evil people are going to find ways to cause harm to others. The least we can do is allow the intended victims an effective defense.

    “The Gun Is Civilization” By Maj. L. Caudill, USMC (Ret)

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

    The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat – it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

    People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

    People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

    The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation… And that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

    By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)
    Thanks, Jim
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  24. #168
    Senior Member Ezzzzy1's Avatar
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    Re: yet another school shooting....

    Quote Originally Posted by TFOGGuys View Post
    Guns are the instrument of choice for these monsters. However, if they were not available, they would find other means. Unless one intends to reduce the human race to running around naked save for the bubble wrap encasing their arms and legs, evil people are going to find ways to cause harm to others. The least we can do is allow the intended victims an effective defense.

    Im not so sure about that.... There is something cool about shooting guns, and almost no cool appeal (other than looks) for knives. What people are doing is the same things we more or less see in movies, its glorified and while I have seen some pretty cool glorified knife fights in the movies I can imagine very many of them playing out with several deaths (especially if adults are the target). That and its personal. It takes a lot more to touch someone before you kill them then just pulling a trigger while running around.

    Also think about this, just for the sake of conversation. How much fun is it to commit suicide by stabbing yourself? I guess one could only imagine but im thinking these guys do not want to live and im just not sure that anyone could count on being able to do that job with a knife alone.
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