The Democrats have ever intention of taking our guns...

[mtnairlover]

HAHA it's a joke Cathy!! it's a quote from 300. I wasn't being serious HAHA lighten up...

Lighten up? Lighten up? Seriously?

You spend a whole thread being as serious as all get out...make a reference to something I have no idea about...and then expect me to "get it", cuz it's in "writing", on a computer screen, without facial expression....and I don't know you from Adam, cept from this forum...

...ummm...

Ok, honey sweetie pie....you wonderful hunka man you...

On another note. Here's my thoughts on gun safety education. Not even that works in all instances. Here's a story to back that statement up...

My ex in-laws live out in farm country. Practically everyone owns at least one gun. Practically everyone goes hunting and shooting. Not only that, but the kids are taught at very young ages how to handle a gun and how to use it "safely". They know where the guns are in the house and they know how to use each and every one.

Along comes my nephew....cute blue-eyed blond that he is. He loves his grandparents and hunting and shooting and everything that goes along with it. His Dad even owns a couple of hand-guns and keeps them safely locked away in their home here in Loveland. He understands all there is to know about guns and he's only 14. One evening, he gets a wild hair and goes on a search for the key to the lock box and the guns. He finds a gun, loads it, goes outside, finds a nice clear area on the pavement next to the house, sticks the gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger. His body wasn't discovered until two days later.

It's stories like that that make me want to take all your precious little toys of destruction, load them all in a massive rocket to the sun and blast it off. But...NOOOOO...the f'n 2nd ammendment protects your right to keep and bear arms. So, here I sit, with my mouth shut, and my opinion to myself. You can have your 2nd ammendment, but I will have my peace of mind.

[DanFZ1]

Not that I want to debate your haiku's
But I will point out that yours didn't paint a picture in my mind and I think your last line has 6 syllables.

You have failed your overlords and Sortorican will now take away you liberal arts card.

All lines refer to Pandora of Greek Mythology. I also counted my 5-7-5 syllables per line on my toes repeatedly. Those three lines took half an hour? Haiku's are tougher than I thought.

[Rhino]

Along comes my nephew....

the f'n 2nd ammendment protects your right to keep and bear arms. So, here I sit, with my mouth shut, and my opinion to myself. You can have your 2nd ammendment, but I will have my piece of mind.

I'm wary to address this as I'm sure it's loaded with emotion...

Your story doesn't really address a downside to the training argument. If anything, it address the need for securing firearms (properly).

What it seems you're skipping over is the "wild hair" aspect. The gun was just convenient. Had it been any other way... the end result would be the same.

The reason the 2nd is important is lost on most modern Americans. You can look all around the world and see the results of either armed bad guys vs. civilians or armed military/governments vs. unarmed civilians.

Imagine how you would feel if "bad guys" broke into your home and anything happened to your children while you were there. It's one thing that (it sounds like) you choose not to have a gun as a form of protection. It's another when you aren't allowed to have that defense (Chicago, D.C.).

I'm not sure what your "piece of mind" on the subject is, but mine is my ability to defend myself and my loved ones.

[mtnairlover]

Don't worry about the emotion, Ryan. I was hoping people would pick up on the irony in that story. What I said was also on the other extreme of this whole gun argument going on here. As a non gun-owner, while I may have some strong feelings about guns, so do a lot of people who own guns. So, throw those emotions and feelings out...come to some sort of middle ground...what do you have?

My peace of mind is in the strong faith I have in the people of this country to never come to what other countries have in this world. I don't fear that ever happening here...ever. It's not how, or why this country came to be. The argument that my home could be invaded? I have my own ways of defending it and my children...and I don't need a gun to feel safe. I've been in this world for way too long and have lived in parts of towns and cities that were not exactly the safest places to live. I have never had to prove my ability to defend myself...ever.

Now, ignore the personal issues...ignore the selfish desires and realize that no one is going to completely lose their right to own a gun...what "type" of gun may be at stake, but compromise is what has built this country and will continue to make this country a safe place to live.

[Devaclis]

The gay is strong in the thread.

[Filo]

....and I don't know you from Adam, cept from this forum...

Hey, don't bring me into this! I have said my part.

BTW, between me and BK, I am the much, much better looking one. He has to run around with that black mask on all the time.

[puckstr]

Now, ignore the personal issues...ignore the selfish desires and realize that no one is going to completely lose their right to own a gun...what "type" of gun may be at stake, but compromise is what has built this country and will continue to make this country a safe place to live.

The thought of a Compromise is EASY for someone to believe, that has NO GUN

I WILL NEVER COMPROMISE

[fullgrownbear]

I have never had to prove my ability to defend myself...ever.

It only takes once.

[mtnairlover]

You guys can profess your fears to me until you are blue in the face. It only takes once? Yeah...had that with my nephew last year on Father's Day. And yes, I know it was a completely different scenario than what you all are talking about, but I'm just not as paranoid. Seems to me, I'm the one more willing to compromise. Seems to me, you're still coming from the point of view that you will lose ALL your rights. Sorry, ain't gonna happen...note what I said about faith in this country. Seems to me you all have less faith in the people of this country than I...hmmm, what does that make you all?

Aside from my jabs, honestly...back to the beginning here...do you all still own guns? Your point is moot.

Oh and Adam? Sigh...just remembering the first time we met....

[puckstr]

Oh and Santa is bringing me GUNS for X-mas...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Big-J]

Not for long, apparently the Dems are going to take them away!

Oh and Santa is bringing me GUNS for X-mas...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[puckstr]

Not for long, apparently the Dems are going to take them away!

Well they are looking for the Dude Santa....


I get this Santa at my house

[dirkterrell]

It's been an evolving position:

So, when you go from voting Republican to supporting a Democrat (and presumably voting that way next Tuesday, it's called "evolving" but when McCain changes his stance on something, it's call "flip-flopping"? Understood.

....and actually, it's never been a question of flip flopping because I do NOT accuse Democratic politicians who HAVE SERVED of being unpatriotic simply because I may disagree them.

But that isn't what you said. Here's what you said:

It is galling to hear Republican voters smear the reputation of men who are Democrats in office who have served this country when so few Republican politicians have ever bothered to join the military.

You didn't say "so few Republican politicians who call Democratic veterans unpatriotic." Or "so few freshman Republican politicians who call Democratic veterans unpatriotic." So, you were smearing all of them. So, on these lists you've cut and pasted, do they have references for what was actually said that is supposedly a "smear"?

Exposing hypocrisy is not the same as what the PROMINENT Lifelong Republican Leadership has tried to foment within it's ranks since the McCarthy era. It is a disgusting tactic and it is not something the Republican party should embrace.

So, it was ok in the early 80's but now it bothers you?

Manipulate this:

Below are the bios of the GOP's freshman congressional class. Note that not one new GOP congress member has served in the military.

Since 100% of the incoming freshman class did not serve, your previous point about sub-samples doesn't wash.

Sure it does. Your sub-sample doesn't match the argument that you were trying to support :

It is galling to hear Republican voters smear the reputation of men who are Democrats in office who have served this country when so few Republican politicians have ever bothered to join the military.

Not "so few incoming Republican politicians."

Define clueless. When has Obama ever made the accusation that any politician, either Democrat or Republican, was unpatriotic, let a lone the ones who actually served in the military? Answer: Never.

Once again, your list was not supporting your claim which I have quoted several times. You made a claim about "so few Republican politicians", i.e. unqualified.

You know, you really should read that article all the way through before you post it as a link supporting your argument.

What makes you think I didn't? It says:

Officials of the AIP said Gov. Palin was once a member, but the McCain campaign -- providing what it says is complete voter registration documentation -- says Palin has been according to official records a lifelong Republican.



A day after making its assertions, on Tuesday evening, AIP chair Lynette Clark acknowledged she was mistaken and that Gov. Palin was never a member.

Anyway, as a Yankee, I am here to tell you that I think trying to succeed from the Union is a bad Idea.

I think you mean secede but what does your opinion of that have to do with whether Palin was an AIP member?

Just because Sarah Palin was first registered as a Republican back in '82 doesn't mean much regarding an organization which is not big on record keeping, such as the A.I.P. After all, how many "members" who don't want Big Brother knowing what's what, are going to advertise the fact that they belong?

Any references to support this lame claim to inside knowledge about AIP's records keeping practices? Or are you being hypocritical and falsely accusing her of being a member of a secessionist group, thus making her unpatriotic?

If you looked at those same links you just sent me to, then you know that Gov. Palin does not tolerate criticism well. (and I'd say that's putting it mildly)

Which has what to do with whether she was a member of AIP? Hint: nothing. Yet another lame attempt at deflecting a valid criticism of a false claim you have made.

If hubby Todd did not believe as Sarah believes, they never would have gotten married in the first place. Instead she went to the rallies.

So, people of different political persuasions don't get married? That seems unlikely. Oh yeah, reading further down you provide proof otherwise:

ouch.

Hey, you know who we remind me of?

James Carville and Mary Matalin, America's oddest couple.
(Except for the fact that I'm not bald.)

James Carville is really a Republican!?!? Or did they never get married?

Why did I bring it all up in the first place? regarding the 2nd Amendment? Because all of the "Red Baiting" that goes on every time a Democratic politician who HAS served in the military suggests that since training works for soldiers and cops, training should be required for civilians (not in blue) as well.

So, who decides whether you have "succeeded" at your training and how does this prevent politicians on either side from making the qualifications harder and harder in the interest of "safety" and "common sense" to the point where no one can qualify?

Many years ago anyone who could build a plane could own and fly one.

Flying a plane isn't a protected human right.

Why should an actual training program for guns create such a "hue and cry" from ANYBODY? whether left OR right? The training you need to use a hand gun in the city is not going to be the same as the training you need to bust "twenty-five straight" at the local gun club. It should be done just like getting a pilots license, and it should be taken seriously so that people get BETTER at what they do.

I agree strongly that people who have guns should know how to use them. Otherwise they will be prone to mis-using them and infringing on the rights of others which will result in their being punished. That is the deterrent against the things you fear. So, I would be behind support of government education on the proper use of guns (e.g. in civics classes, adult education classes like the NRA offers) but I would never place any government licensing requirement on the constitutionally protected right keep and bear arms any more than I would place any such license requirement on the right to speak in public.

The 2nd Amendment has been more than just upheld.

By a narrow 5-4 vote. And this gets back to your claim that Obama is better vis a vis gun rights than McCain. Given Obama's (and the Democrats') voting record on gun rights, I'm not confident that the decision couldn't be easily reversed by a couple of likely Supreme Court appointments.

It has been clarified (finally) and it has been affirmed that, once and for all, you DO have the right to own a gun for political reasons and also to protect your wife, your life and your property. Not just for Dove hunting.

The people of the UK, Australia, Bermuda, Cuba, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Jamaica, Soviet Georgia and others also had that right once. That is, until they started passing "common sense" gun control laws. I take the Founding Fathers at their word when they said that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

Well they are looking for the Dude Santa....


I get this Santa at my house

Be careful. You can put an eye out with that.

Dirk

[puckstr]

Be careful. You put put an eye out with that.

Dirk

She is more likely to get shot in the EYE from me

[Rhino]

So, throw those emotions and feelings out...come to some sort of middle ground...what do you have? Middle ground= The right to defend myself. Your right to defend yourself. By right, I mean a Human right to self defense, not something "given" on a piece of paper....or taken away by another piece of paper.
...I'll just wait here a second until someone suggests I want claymores for home defense

My peace of mind is in the strong faith I have in the people of this country to never come to what other countries have in this world. I don't fear that ever happening here...ever. It's not how, or why this country came to be. This country is nothing like what it was founded on. The idea of self-reliance is a thing of the past. It's been said that we give people welfare to prevent them from taking it. This election may allow us to see what happens when you promise to give people something you can't and they feel they are "owed" it.

The argument that my home could be invaded? I have my own ways of defending it and my children...and I don't need a gun to feel safe. I've been in this world for way too long and have lived in parts of towns and cities that were not exactly the safest places to live. I have never had to prove my ability to defend myself...ever. While I won't ask your particular defense plan, most people don't think their's through. "I keep a baseball bat next to the bed"....have you ever tried to swing a bat in a hallway? "I've got mace/pepperspray." ...have you considered that YOU will be in the same room and affected in a similar fashion as your target? Even some people with guns don't plan. Firing a gun indoors without hearing protection can shake you. The muzzle flash in a dark room can temporarily blind you, etc.

Now, ignore the personal issues...ignore the selfish desires Ya lost me here...

and realize that no one is going to completely lose their right to own a gun...what "type" of gun may be at stake, but compromise is what has built this country and will continue to make this country a safe place to live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkS2BRoCd2I I'd prefer to learn from the mistakes of others rather than suffer their same fate. As it was noted in the last vid link I posted, Brady, the champion of gun restrictions was shot with a .22 revolver. That is so far down on the gun scale, I think a board with a nail in it actually would be banned first.

As far as the emotions, etc.:

It wasn't "My nephew killed himself with a gun". It was "Along comes my nephew....cute blue-eyed blond that he is. He loves his grandparents..." I could almost hear the tremble in your voice as you quietly wept over his picture.

I left this out of my first post to avoid the imagery it might inspire in you, but... What if he didn't find the key? That "wild hair" was still there. If it had been "went into the garage and threw a rope over a rafter" would he be less not here? If he had found the key to a Z1000 in the garage and purposely ran into an oncoming truck at 100 mph, would you still be riding every chance you get?

[Rhino]

Seems to me you all have less faith in the people of this country than I...hmmm, what does that make you all? Observant

Aside from my jabs, honestly...back to the beginning here...do you all still own guns? Your point is moot. The point of this thread is the idea that "they" might try to take them.

I'm not sure what you're claiming to be more "compromising" about. Gun ownership? Training? Access?

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with you compromising on which of my "precious toys of destruction" I get to keep. Matter of fact, I'm SURE I'm not comfortable with that.

[puckstr]

I'm not sure what you're claiming to be more "compromising" about. Gun ownership? Training? Access?

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with you compromising on which of my "precious toys of destruction" I get to keep. Matter of fact, I'm SURE I'm not comfortable with that.

+100000000000000

Seems to me you all have less faith in SOME people of this country than I...hmmm, what does that make you all?

Well REALISTIC comes to mind

[dirkterrell]

My peace of mind is in the strong faith I have in the people of this country to never come to what other countries have in this world. I don't fear that ever happening here...ever. It's not how, or why this country came to be.

But when that thin veneer of civilization disappears and the government can't or won't enforce the law, what happens? Korean business owners protecting their lives and property in the LA riots were one example. New Orleans after Katrina was another good example:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/32966.html

The argument that my home could be invaded? I have my own ways of defending it and my children...and I don't need a gun to feel safe. I've been in this world for way too long and have lived in parts of towns and cities that were not exactly the safest places to live. I have never had to prove my ability to defend myself...ever.

I am well trained in a martial art and in the use of a variety of weapons. Only once have I had to point a gun at someone. It prevented a crime from being committed. But, as James said, it only takes once to realize that being unprepared is unwise. I'll bet Tracy Paules had never had to defend herself until Danny Rolling brutally killed her and her 6'3" 200+ lb. football star roommate Manuel "Manny" Toboada in quiet, peaceful Gainesville, FL, a place filled with people of the anti-gun persuasion who finally understood what it was all about when a serial killer was running loose amongst them. I know the fear that gripped the town because I was there.

Since you posted the truly heartbreaking story of your nephew, let me share some of the killer's own words about the vicious murder of Tracy and Manny:

The possessed puppet of flesh crept down the dim hall, pulled along by an angry, twisted master- his own insane mind.

Tracy's door creaked open and she emerged frightened, brandishing a curling iron. Instantly she saw the Terror coming for her.

"Yeeeee.... ahhhh! Go away!" And she leapt back into her room, slamming and locking the door behind her.

The Demon took three steps, kicked, and SMASH! The door splintered away from the frame. The Creature of Lust pounced on the screaming woman. He flung her onto the bed and pressed one hand over her mouth while drawing the Ka-Bar [knife] with the other.

* from "The Making of a Serial Killer" by Danny Rolling

I'll stop there as the rest is pretty detailed and horrifically graphic. Needless to say, if Tracy had been armed with a gun rather than a curling iron, the story might have been very different.

So, I share your faith in most of the people of our society but I am also aware that there are plenty of people who have no qualms about killing someone for the $20 in their wallet. I want those people to fear for their own lives if they decide to commit a crime against law-abiding citizens. I want someone thinking of mugging a law-abiding citizen to wonder if that person has a gun and is going to end their criminal career right there. And I want to know that if we have an extended power outage due to a snowstorm that the unprepared won't be able to march up to my house and take the food, water, fuel and power generators that I had the foresight to get before the problem occurred. I would rather be prepared than regret it.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

+100000000000000
Well REALISTIC comes to mind

Steve for President in 2012.

Dirk

[puckstr]

Hells Yes

And hot chicks with guns

[puckstr]

Even Midget Ladies Love Guns

[All-Labout-me]

Wow!
13 pages later and here is my take away from this conversation.

The gov. sucks
Guns kill people and people don't kill people (damn shifty guns)
Dirk is an "ass-throw-physics" guy
Snowman wants old dogs to prove they can learn new tricks.
And if it snows and I loose power to go to Dirks house for dinner!

That about covers it.
Thanks for all of your contributions to wasting an afternoon at work.
I'm tired now, so I think I'll go home now!

-Doug

[The Black Knight]

On another note. Here's my thoughts on gun safety education. Not even that works in all instances. Here's a story to back that statement up...

My ex in-laws live out in farm country. Practically everyone owns at least one gun. Practically everyone goes hunting and shooting. Not only that, but the kids are taught at very young ages how to handle a gun and how to use it "safely". They know where the guns are in the house and they know how to use each and every one.

Along comes my nephew....cute blue-eyed blond that he is. He loves his grandparents and hunting and shooting and everything that goes along with it. His Dad even owns a couple of hand-guns and keeps them safely locked away in their home here in Loveland. He understands all there is to know about guns and he's only 14. One evening, he gets a wild hair and goes on a search for the key to the lock box and the guns. He finds a gun, loads it, goes outside, finds a nice clear area on the pavement next to the house, sticks the gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger. His body wasn't discovered until two days later.

It's stories like that that make me want to take all your precious little toys of destruction, load them all in a massive rocket to the sun and blast it off. But...NOOOOO...the f'n 2nd ammendment protects your right to keep and bear arms. So, here I sit, with my mouth shut, and my opinion to myself. You can have your 2nd ammendment, but I will have my peace of mind.

Cathy,

No offense or insensitivity but how is the suicide of a 14 year old, the fault of the gun? From what I read, the "gun" didn't get itself out of the locked cabinet and the "gun" didn't put itself into your nephew's hand. Also the "gun" didn't tell him to commit suicide.

There is obviously something more sinister here that meets the eye. Your nephew may have been suffering from some sort of mental problems or whatever the case may have been. But to blame it on the gun, is typical anti-gun BS.

If the guns weren't there, I'm sure he would have used rope. Want to ban rope now? If rope wasn't there, I'm sure he could have used sleeping pills. Or death by train(several of the older people I work with here at the City have found a couple people who died by train), want to ban sleeping pills and trains now?

If there is a will, there is a way in a morbid sense of speaking. You can't stop someone from dying and if they truely want to end their life. It doesn't matter what you do, you can't spend time with them 24/7(unless you lock them in a padded room and straight jacket), but it will happen eventually. As soon as they are out of sight from people, is when it goes down.

And with regards to your last comments. If you want to take away my Right to keep and bear arms. Then how about I take away the 19th Amendment and send you back to the kitchen?? OHHH!!! now wait a minute, that's f**ked up you say!!! Can't do that, you're an equal now.

The same principal goes into taking my right to bear arms away. If you don't want the 19th tampered with, I don't want the 2nd tampered with. And if you want to take my guns away based on a rather isolated or unique case I should say, then that's just pure ignorance and wrong. To be mad a guns because one was used in taking the life of a very dear loved one, is like being mad at McDonalds because someone got fat and can't move.

For the record, I'm not anti 19th Amendment, only used it as a extreme example to your extreme example. See Cathy, you have to understand it's people thinking like you, is the reason why people like me and the NRA offer up a NO COMPROMISE approach. I will make no consessions when it comes to my guns or my rights and liberties. And it's because of people like you and your point of view, that we give you(anti-gun) an inch and you'll take us(gun owners) a mile.