Speed limits...

[MetaLord 9]

I'm waaaaay too ADD to read through all these posts this morning, but I will say that we need speed limits, but speed "limit" is more of a misnomer. If you're going under the "limit," most people deem you as going too slow, thus making it more of a recommended, or targeted, speed than anything else. On straight, flat roads like those in the plains states & parts of the mid-west (Ohio... ) speed limits are there basically to make sure someone getting on the road & getting up to speed isn't gonna get blown up by someone else already going a buck fiddy.
However, here in twisty land, I think the limits are very important. I use the speed limit & recommended speed signs to judge the severity of upcomming turns & twists. If I'm blowing through a section of wide sweepers at 80 then come around blind corner that isn't rated but would be rated at a 30 mph corner then I'm gonna have way too many adjustments to make in that short a period of time.

[dirkterrell]

BTW.... we are all doing over the speed limit even when we are standing still (the earth rotates at approx. 1038 mph at the equator)...

Well, everything depends on the frame of reference.

Yes, speed limits are necessary when you have vehicles interacting with one another and the value depends on the local conditions. With a long flat stretch of highway, you can set them higher. A car pulling into the flow of traffic can see oncoming traffic well enough to decide whether it's safe to go. If they are pulling out with a blind corner upstream, the speed limit needs to be lower so that they know they have enough time to pull out and get up to speed without being rear-ended.

On limited access highways what's critical is speed differential. You need to also ensure that people are going fast enough so that someone doesn't fly up on them unexpectedly (and you do see minimum speed limits on some of these roads).

Now, with that said, I think a lot of speed limits are set for generating ticket revenue rather than safety. One example is comparing the speed limit along 287 near Baseline. It's 55-60 mph there with stop lights and all sorts of cross streets. It's 55 on parts of 36 with no cross traffic. Those two places have very different traffic patterns and yet they have the same speed limit. I don't see any reason why 36 needs to have a 55mph limit.

Dirk

[lightspeed]

However, here in twisty land, I think the limits are very important. I use the speed limit & recommended speed signs to judge the severity of upcomming turns & twists. If I'm blowing through a section of wide sweepers at 80 then come around blind corner that isn't rated but would be rated at a 30 mph corner then I'm gonna have way too many adjustments to make in that short a period of time.

Excellent point..never thought of this

[lightspeed]

Well, everything depends on the frame of reference.

Yes, speed limits are necessary when you have vehicles interacting with one another and the value depends on the local conditions. With a long flat stretch of highway, you can set them higher. A car pulling into the flow of traffic can see oncoming traffic well enough to decide whether it's safe to go. If they are pulling out with a blind corner upstream, the speed limit needs to be lower so that they know they have enough time to pull out and get up to speed without being rear-ended.

On limited access highways what's critical is speed differential. You need to also ensure that people are going fast enough so that someone doesn't fly up on them unexpectedly (and you do see minimum speed limits on some of these roads).

Now, with that said, I think a lot of speed limits are set for generating ticket revenue rather than safety. One example is comparing the speed limit along 287 near Baseline. It's 55-60 mph there with stop lights and all sorts of cross streets. It's 55 on parts of 36 with no cross traffic. Those two places have very different traffic patterns and yet they have the same speed limit. I don't see any reason why 36 needs to have a 55mph limit.

Dirk

So the question becomes in my mind... Why build and sell cars in the US that have the ability to far exceed speed limits posted anywhere in the country. It's like telling a child to walk when they have the ability to fly.

[Devaclis]

So the question becomes in my mind... Why build and sell cars in the US that have the ability to far exceed speed limits posted anywhere in the country. It's like telling a child to walk when they have the ability to fly.

We make a lot of products that can do things illegal.

Guns have the ability to end a persons life. Let's make ending a persons life with a gun legal.

Gasoline will set an animal on fire when ignited. We should legalize that.

My dirtbike can wheelie over someone, that should be legal too.

Maybe we should stop treating people like children and let them wheelie on our faces while lighting our cats on fire until the adrenaline rush of offing our neighbor with a 12 gauge fades out. Because we are obviously not children, we should be able to to whatever we want.

Really? Because my bike can go fast, I should legally be allowed to do it? You will have to do better than that.

[MetaLord 9]

Don't mind Dana, he's just pissed there's no "St. Pollock's Day."

[lightspeed]

We make a lot of products that can do things illegal.

Guns have the ability to end a persons life. Let's make ending a persons life with a gun legal.

Gasoline will set an animal on fire when ignited. We should legalize that.

My dirtbike can wheelie over someone, that should be legal too.

Maybe we should stop treating people like children and let them wheelie on our faces while lighting our cats on fire until the adrenaline rush of offing our neighbor with a 12 gauge fades out. Because we are obviously not children, we should be able to to whatever we want.

Really? Because my bike can go fast, I should legally be allowed to do it? You will have to do better than that.

lol...funny man. I really don't have an argument one way or the other.... But...let's look at what you said..

And actually it is legal to end someones life using a gun in some circumstances. Also...those who eat meat and are not vegan...do...on a regular basis light animals on fire... Ever heard of a barbeque?

So, if the intent of the law is safety...then shouldn't this saftey be implemented into motorized vehicles depending on their use? Stirring the pot for your internet personality...

[Devaclis]

No, I just want to hear a valid argument FOR raising the speed limit that does not involve "I have a 10k MPH vehicle so you should raise the speed limit."

I work for a company that does the research for and recommendations TO the state for speeds on our roads. They have very good reasons why the speed limits are exactly what they are.

We have methods of legal travel to get you where you want to go faster than the legal road speed limit. If you just want to go fast, because your vehicle is fast, go to the track. If your skills are so amazing that the mere mortals on the highway cannot comprehend them and they should be shot for even looking at you and your supafastmotorcycle then make money at the track, with your awesome skills.

Here, let me put it this way, because I can relate, as can a lot of people here:

I am allowed to buy beer and drink it. I am allowed to drive a car. I should be able to do both at the same time!! As fast as my car will go! Because I have raced, I have more advanced car driving skills than most. I have a really high tolerance for alcohol too. AND, I live close to the bar. Plus, I am not a child. It should be legal. Hell, I may be over qualified.

[lightspeed]

lol...yes, I see your point, however why not implement these saftey standards directly into the vehicles used on the streets? Why not limit them to approx the speed limit if the intent is safety? Just as we have seat belts...air bags...and breathalizers in cars...

[Ricky]

Oh boy, do I ever have a lot of opinion on this subject.

Recently I was in Guatemala, where I've traveled often for the last 15 years. For the second time, I rented a car, and got to experience Guatemalan driving style. While they have speed limits, and lane guides, and traffic lights, and all those things, they really don't give a shit what you do. You won't get pulled over for speeding, you can pass cars whenever it's safe to do so. Even if it's not safe, most cars will work together to quickly turn a 2 lane road with a small shoulder, into a 3 lane road. Speed limits are often followed, but there are many people who greatly exceed them. Now, the difference is, their roads cannot support the speeds ours can. Going 80mph on a road down there, feels like driving 110 on a road here. Most roads won't even support half that speed. However, there are plenty of long stretches of highway that people could get in trouble on, but they don't.

As for the United States, it's definitely not Guatemala. IMO, the majority of people who drive here, are WAY too uneducated about driving. They don't know the rules well enough, and don't know how to handle a car at speeds, and how to get out of situations like overcorrection, or dirt on pavement, or how to drive on snow. Some people are so clueless about driving, they ignore things like pulling out into the intersection to make a left turn and be the last car when the light turns yellow. Instead they sit at the line and wait for the opportunity when there are no cars. Even if the light doesn't have a left turn only green... Some people just don't pay enough attention in this country. Texting, women applying makeup, cell phones, gps, stereos, kids... Just a few examples of why we need speed limits for those who don't pay attention.

As for removing speed limits, I think what is important to get past our problems in this country, is getting people (especially stupid as fuck semi drivers) to understand that the left lanes go faster than the right lanes. If we could establish speed limits for lanes on a highway that had different speed limits, it would get people to better respect the speeds of those lanes. Right lanes 45-55, middle lanes 55-70, left lane 70-85+. Something like that. Also, make the police start enforcing the passing on the right law, and also enforce a law that would make people move the fuck over when there are people behind them going too slowly. (similar to a new law passed for one lane mountain roads that requires large vehicles to pull over when 5 or more vehicles stack up behind).

The one thing that is more important than anything, is that I think people should be required to take advanced drivers courses, if they are going to be allowed to exceed any sort of set limits. There's more to driving than actually driving a car. Just as there is on a bike. "Rider radar" is something from the MSF class that needs to be taught to every driver. People absolutely do not understand this concept, for the most part. I've been driving a car since I was 10 (lucky enough to live in a ranch in the boonies), so I started learning early to watch out for all kinds of situations. My dad used to throw situations at me (while driving) like a flight instructor does during training flights (like suddenly pulling the power and saying "engine failure"). "What if a kid ran out in front of your car right now?" he would say... He always had many good points. He taught me to control a car by getting it out of control. We would take cars out in the snow and he would make me drive erratically, just to get control again. He used to make me drive through big puddles of water with only one wheel, just so I'd know what it does to the car. What hydroplaning is, overcorrection, all that great stuff to learn. So because of that, when I turned 16, I sorta knew how to drive. But my point being, I think education and experience are key to being able to change any sort of speed limit law.

I would think that speed limits in certain areas of cities should still be strictly enforced. School zones, residential areas, etc.

My last point is, it's great and all that we have all these awesome recommendations for speeds in our country on our roads, but why is it that Hitler was able to establish something we're incapable of handling? (The autobahn) They have no speed limits there, and while things are quite different, they show that we, as humans, are capable of it.

[Ricky]

And..does speed kill or do people kill?

Interesting answer to this question:

People kill... because if you were to take both people out of the equation, and replace them with (non-failing, lol) computers, then speed would never be an issue...

[Devaclis]

The Autobahn is 1 road, an expressway. 99.9% of the roads in Germany have posted speed limits. Oh, people die on the Autobahn all the time. If it were a road in the US then MADD, DAMN, PETA, OSHA, and the NAACP would have had it shut down years ago.

[Ricky]

If it were a road in the US then MADD, DAMN, PETA, OSHA, and the NAACP would have had it shut down years ago.

hahahahahha, that's a great point

[asp_125]

The Autobahn is 1 road, an expressway. 99.9% of the roads in Germany have posted speed limits. Oh, people die on the Autobahn all the time. If it were a road in the US then MADD, DAMN, PETA, OSHA, and the NAACP would have had it shut down years ago.

Anyone remember the "Montana-bahn"? Ahh the good old days.. FYI anyone who's been on the autobahn knows that the unlimited stretches are getting fewer and more congested. Aside from politcal pressure, something like that here will never happen, because US drivers are incapable of understanding "keep right except to pass".

The thing is, even though cars today technologically can go way faster and safely over the posted limit, drivers have not improved one bit. Reflexes have not genetically gotten any faster, eyesight has not gone superhuman, and we are more and more preoccupied with texting and cell phones. The amount of information processing needed to drive safely at high speeds is somewhat limited by our own evolution.

[puckstr]

So the question becomes in my mind... Why build and sell cars in the US that have the ability to far exceed speed limits posted anywhere in the country. It's like telling a child to walk when they have the ability to fly.

Like anyone would ever buy a sportbike that was limited to the speed limit.

Defeats the purpose of the "Sport"bike

Ride as fast as you want...but be prepared to pay if ya get caught.

[lightspeed]

Like anyone would ever buy a sportbike that was limited to the speed limit.

Defeats the purpose of the "Sport"bike

Ride as fast as you want...but be prepared to pay if ya get caught.

My sentiments exactly!

[dirkterrell]

Actually, I think the whole idea of a monetary fine for speeding is what leads to trouble. The politicians claim that it is about "public safety." If so, why not just eliminate the monetary part of the fine and make it points only? If you get enough points for violations, you can't drive. If you drive and have exceeded the points limit, you go to jail. That would address the public safety issues.

But they'll never do that because it's a revenue source that they count on in their budgets. If it were a public safety issue, a 10 mph over ticket would be $5000. Many, many fewer people would speed and the public safety issues would be addressed. But it's not really about public safety. They set the fines so that people will just pay them for the most part and they maximize their revenue source.

Dirk

[OUTLAWD]

Maybe this is my old age showing...but I think we need speed limits...

this doesn't mean that I haven't spent any time behind the wheel doing 150+ running from the cops, but it does mean that I was fucking stupid...I was young and had a car that was too fast for my own good, and while I spent alot of time at the racetrack, and thought I was a decent driver...nothing can appropriately prepare someone to drive/ride SAFELY at those speeds on public roads. Between other drivers, or non-drivers as the case may be, shit on the road, potholes, wildlife running astray, other cars/bike in disrepair, cell phones, there are just too many variables that no one can control or predict...

Some people have track experience, and training, etc, but most of the people you see on the road do not (myself included), and IMO the majority of those people should not be on the road period.

for some reason when I think of roads without speed limits...I just picture the world turning into a Mad Max scene...haha

[puckstr]

Maybe this is my old age showing...but I think we need speed limits...

this doesn't mean that I haven't spent any time behind the wheel doing 150+ running from the cops, but it does mean that I was fucking stupid...I was young and had a car that was too fast for my own good, and while I spent alot of time at the racetrack, and thought I was a decent driver...nothing can appropriately prepare someone to drive/ride SAFELY at those speeds on public roads. Between other drivers, or non-drivers as the case may be, shit on the road, potholes, wildlife running astray, other cars/bike in disrepair, cell phones, there are just too many variables that no one can control or predict...

Some people have track experience, and training, etc, but most of the people you see on the road do not (myself included), and IMO the majority of those people should not be on the road period.

for some reason when I think of roads without speed limits...I just picture the world turning into a Mad Max scene...haha

Fuckin A Mad Max society....Yes Yes Yes

[Ricky]

Actually, I think the whole idea of a monetary fine for speeding is what leads to trouble. The politicians claim that it is about "public safety." If so, why not just eliminate the monetary part of the fine and make it points only? If you get enough points for violations, you can't drive. If you drive and have exceeded the points limit, you go to jail. That would address the public safety issues.

This is so true. I have noticed this as of late. I've been working up here on 120th & I25 for 3.5 years. Same commute from 84th to 120th EVERY day. And often, I do the trip twice a day. About a year ago, the norm was that in the morning and afternoon you would never ever see a cop catching speeders. However, at lunch they would have one or two in each direction clocking all kinds of people. I got used to this routine of theirs and I started figuring out their hiding spots, and times when they are out.

Then, all of a sudden, the economy starts to go to shit. 4 months ago I notice that every single morning there are cops sitting between 104th & 120th catching all kinds of people where it goes from 55 to 65. Then it became a 50/50 routine.

However, in the last 2 months, there are ALWAYS cops on that stretch of road, no matter what time of day (except somewhat rare in the afternoon rush hour). And there's almost always someone pulled over.

A week ago I saw them do something I had never seen them do before. THere is a pedestrian crossover just north of 104th, and there was a cop up on it clocking people, and 5 cop cars below being radioed information about the speeders. People would cross under 104th, and be caught instantly...

Here's what I fathom is going down at the Thornton Police station: Revenues are down, and they're having a hard time paying for that nice new Thornton municipal court building, as well as the new big screen fucking tv they won't be able to afford for their little break room. So hey, let's have a "fundraiser". Sit on I25 at opportune times and pick people off. We spend a day or two out there, that will undoubtedly pay for our TV. (or something like that :lol)

Meanwhile some single mom making minimum wage, got a ticket for 10 over and can't afford to pay the ticket, let alone the gas she needs to get to work...

Definitely about revenue.

[puckstr]

It has never been about safety, only Revenue.

[asp_125]

Slight threadjack, ever notice who you write the check out to on tickets? "dept of revenue or county clerk's office"... now how much of that do you suppose gets funneled towards "public safety" vs the general operations of the county? Hmmmm.....

[lightspeed]

Then, all of a sudden, the economy starts to go to shit. 4 months ago I notice that every single morning there are cops sitting between 104th & 120th catching all kinds of people where it goes from 55 to 65. Then it became a 50/50 routine.

However, in the last 2 months, there are ALWAYS cops on that stretch of road, no matter what time of day (except somewhat rare in the afternoon rush hour). And there's almost always someone pulled over.

A week ago I saw them do something I had never seen them do before. THere is a pedestrian crossover just north of 104th, and there was a cop up on it clocking people, and 5 cop cars below being radioed information about the speeders. People would cross under 104th, and be caught instantly...

Here's what I fathom is going down at the Thornton Police station: Revenues are down, and they're having a hard time paying for that nice new Thornton municipal court building, as well as the new big screen fucking tv they won't be able to afford for their little break room. So hey, let's have a "fundraiser". Sit on I25 at opportune times and pick people off. We spend a day or two out there, that will undoubtedly pay for our TV. (or something like that :lol)

Meanwhile some single mom making minimum wage, got a ticket for 10 over and can't afford to pay the ticket, let alone the gas she needs to get to work...

Definitely about revenue.

[ChrisCBX]

Interesting front page story in our local paper. There were 70 tickets handed out recently on main street in Longmont. I can't remember ever reading about so many tickets on one "operation".

Interesting story (read the posted comments as well)...........

http://www.timescall.com/News_Story.asp?ID=14973