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Thread: Braking in a Turn

  1. #1
    Huge Member Site Admin Mother Goose's Avatar
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    Braking in a Turn

    Quoted and stickied.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    I'm not religious about the covering or not covering the brake lever. What's important is how to use the lever. If covering works for you, do it. If not, don't worry about it. Casey hit the important point: being comfortable in controlling the bike by practicing. You don't want to have to figure out how to do something in the second or two that you need to make a decision. It needs to be instinctual.

    Instruction from experienced riders can be very helpful. Riding at a a place like IMI when it's not too crowded, and working with someone will allow you to practice things without having to worry about other things like cars. Start easy and progressively increase so that you become comfortable with interpreting what the bike is telling you. If you are smooth with your inputs to the bike and you understand what the bike is doing, you'll learn how to use everything the bike can do for you in an emergency situation. If you grab a handful of brake while leaned over because you panic, you'll end up on your head.

    On the street, even at an elevated pace, I rarely use the brake. I recommend you try it at a comfortable pace, and then slowly and methodically pick up the pace until you start to feel the urge to use the brake. Stay at that pace for a while until you no longer feel the need to go for the brake. This will teach you to use the engine braking properly. A lot of new riders that I have helped over the years have had a tendency to be geared too high going into corners. Keeping the RPMs up will help you in a number of ways in a corner but mainly it gives you the ability to make speed adjustments that keep the bike much more stable than when you have to use the brakes.

    But there will be times where you'll need to get on the brakes while leaned over. It's really not a big deal once you understand how to do it and others have mentioned the basic ideas. What you have to do is manage that contact patch properly. If you're on the edge of the tire, you're using the majority of the friction that the contact patch can give you for the turning force. You have to be very delicate on the lever. If you only need to scrub a little speed, you might be better off using the back brake, again smoothly. You just have to be careful not to lock it up, because if you do, you stand a pretty good chance of highsiding. Again, practice it in a methodical manner. But you might need to use the front at some point, so you should practice that. Learn what the bike feels like as you apply the front brake while leaned over. Casey described what happens, now go out and see what it feels like. Empty parking lots work great.

    The biggest thing that will help you in braking is learning how to properly apply the brakes. A lot of newer riders tend to treat them as an on-off switch but that is a sure way to end up surfing the asphalt. The input controls, steering/brakes/gas, should be thought of as dials that you ramp up and ramp down. In braking, you will find that a gradual apply and release action keeps the bike much more stable than an instant on and off. As an example, if you're on the brakes with the bike straight up for 5 seconds, after the first second you might be at 30% braking, after two seconds 80%, at three seconds 100%, after four seconds, 30% and back to 0 at five seconds. The slow application allows the suspension to deal smoothly with the back to front weight transition and give the tire time to bite into the road, giving you more braking power. If you instantly go to 100%, the front tire is being asked to grip harder but it isn't being pushed into the road as hard and you'll probably lock it up. Practice that gradual application until it becomes second nature. Try braking with just your index finger. It will give you all the power you need to do a stop but help you avoid ramping up too quickly. Even when racing, trail braking hard up to the apex, I only use one finger.

    Now, how about doing the above when you're leaned over? It's the same idea, except that now we're balancing the friction needed for turning with the friction we need for braking. Obviously you can't go to 100% when you're on the edge of the tire. How much can you go? That depends on the conditions and your tires. With heated up race slicks you have quite a bit more than you have on cold sport-touring tires. If you're riding on the street, you should never put yourself in the position of having to know exactly where that limit is. You should be riding at a pace that leaves you plenty of room to react and stop before you need to worry about your braking limit at the edge of the tire. On the track, you can explore that limit more safely. But the basic idea is still there: smoothly apply the brake, ramping up to the maximum and ramping back down. Learn to do the same thing with the throttle.

    Once you master smooth inputs, you'll have much better control over your bike and be able to deal with situations as they arise. Modern bikes and tires can do really amazing things if you know how to make smooth inputs to the bike. Practice and learning from experienced riders will get you there.

    Dirk
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  2. #2
    Member 2isbetterthan4's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Awesome reading and info! Thank you!

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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    +1. Good read.
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Stuff like this is a good idea for this section.

    The usual spring-time influx of newbs will be epic this year. Between popularity, general affordability and (what appears to be the most influential) gas prices.
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylar View Post
    Stuff like this is a good idea for this section.

    The usual spring-time influx of newbs will be epic this year. Between popularity, general affordability and (what appears to be the most influential) gas prices.
    There's also an entire brigade moving to Carson. Plan on the average percentage of those 3,500 soldiers or so being riders as well.

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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Good read and very helpful

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    Junior Member Mntntoproc's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Great read! Appreciate the thoughts and tips you all share!

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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Maybe its just me but using the rear requires finesse most who have never riden at track pace can do. Seen too many riders go down at lean for not modulating/compensating for contact patch. Ever seen that guy with the brake light almost always on? Eventually the friction becomes so great the next time its used especially in a panic the point where the rear wheel locks isn't at the same point anymore.

    I am no expert rider by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying be careful street riding is by far more dangerous than most give it credit.

  9. #9

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Great read! A question: has anyone ever modified the rear brakes so they drag and don't lock up so readily? Last week I was at Danny Walker's American Supercamp which teaches flat track (dirt) turning technique and we had this interesting discussion about road racing and modifying the rear brake so the pads are 1/2 the surface area. A video of Ben Spies was the example. That way the rear brake can be more easily managed slowing into a turn without as much fear of locking it up. Anyone have any experience with this on the track? Thanks.

  10. #10
    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    I do my rear pads like that. Danny suggest that to me almost 10 years ago. It also helps when you put the rear wheel back on.
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    Princess of Prius Sean's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyDogRacing View Post
    It also helps when you put the rear wheel back on.
    Almost worth doing it, for that reason alone.

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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by slo lee View Post
    Great read! A question: has anyone ever modified the rear brakes so they drag and don't lock up so readily? Last week I was at Danny Walker's American Supercamp which teaches flat track (dirt) turning technique and we had this interesting discussion about road racing and modifying the rear brake so the pads are 1/2 the surface area. A video of Ben Spies was the example. That way the rear brake can be more easily managed slowing into a turn without as much fear of locking it up. Anyone have any experience with this on the track? Thanks.
    So you shave down the brake pad itself? Length wise? What do you use?
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    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    Almost worth doing it, for that reason alone.
    use a bench grinder if you have one. if not, you can rub them on the sidewalk and get the same result, just takes a little longer. you will bevel it so that when the brakes are engaged, only half (or less) of the pad is touching the rotor.
    Last edited by UglyDogRacing; Wed Jun 20th, 2012 at 09:28 AM.
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    But .... as the pads wear, won't you eventually get more and more surface as it becomes parallel again? ie brake-> / | <-rotor becomes ||
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    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by asp_125 View Post
    But .... as the pads wear, won't you eventually get more and more surface as it becomes parallel again? ie brake-> / | <-rotor becomes ||
    yes but with the little use they get, it should take some time before they wear down that far.
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    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    I was surprised to read that most n0obs treat the brake as an "on/off switch", especially on a bike where we slow down (brake) much quicker than cars. Even if you don't take the MSF, you learn this the first time you're ever on a bike, the sensitivity of the lever and how it relates to appropriate distances to the car in front of you, etc. A lot of this is common sense afterall, but we all know about the general public and common sense, heh.

    Good info though, thanks for sharing!
    Last edited by Ghosty; Wed Jun 20th, 2012 at 10:16 AM.
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Good Read

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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    especially on a bike where we slow down (brake) much quicker than cars.
    I don't think that's true at all. Modern cars can brake pretty effectively. Typical braking distances for a sport bike from 60mph are 110-120 feet. A modern Vette or a 911 can do it in under 100 feet. ABS plus the inherent stability of a car means that pretty much any driver can achieve close to the maximum braking power of the vehicle. There are many more variables to deal with on a bike (e.g. weight transfer), so I bet the variation among different riders under identical conditions would be significantly greater than for car drivers. In any case, I think assuming that you can stop significantly faster than the cars around you is flawed.
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    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Noted, but I definitely still assume I can brake WAY faster than cars behind me specifically, especially if they're close. Good rule of thumb, assume they WILL crunch you, if you give it a fistfull of brake-hand and they're closer than they should be.
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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Noted, but I definitely still assume I can brake WAY faster than cars behind me specifically, especially if they're close. Good rule of thumb, assume they WILL crunch you, if you give it a fistfull of brake-hand and they're closer than they should be.
    I definitely agree with that approach.
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    I wonder if the on/off switch is more of a reaction to a specific "pucker" moment, as opposed to a general reaction. A car braking hard in front of me doesn't bother me nearly as much as the person crossing in front of me in an intersection. (running a light, or turning across traffic when it's not safe, etc.) More than once, when i first started riding, i grabbed the lever with more force than i should have.
    --Great info by the way!

  22. #22
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by snarky45 View Post
    I wonder if the on/off switch is more of a reaction to a specific "pucker" moment, as opposed to a general reaction.
    Yeah sorry, I went a little off-topic, when looking at the context of the OP.
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    Re: Braking in a Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Noted, but I definitely still assume I can brake WAY faster than cars behind me specifically, especially if they're close. Good rule of thumb, assume they WILL crunch you, if you give it a fistfull of brake-hand and they're closer than they should be.
    +1
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  24. #24

    Re: Braking in a Turn

    So Jim, how did you decide if you had ground down the brake pad enough. Trial and error? And part two of the question; should I start with 1/2 of the brake pad touching the rotor and ride it on the track and go from there? I'm going to do this to my Ninja 250. Thanks for your input.

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