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Thread: For the O haters... a thought.

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    Senior Member Vance's Avatar
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    For the O haters... a thought.

    I have not gotten political in a REALLY long time on this board.
    For some of you who don't know - this is almost a shocking concept I've been able to bite my tongue this long... but no longer...

    Okay Obama haters: while I'm absolutely NOT pleased with the majority of his tenure (believe me I wish there was another democrat candidate stepping up to challenge him... hell I wish there was a true multi-party system in this country instead of this party-and-a-half bullshit)...

    ... I am ABSOLUTELY sick of hearing about how EVERYTHING has managed to become HIS fault over the last 3 years. Amongst them: the bailout (Bush II's idea and signature as I remember it), pulling out of Iraq (Bush II's promise to Iraq originally and signature setting the date), etc, etc, etc...

    ... So when a KNOWN conservative oriented and leaning think tank is telling you all it's NOT HIS FAULT on something, how about you listen for a change???

    http://www.cato.org/publications/com...have-increased

    ... Or are these guys now a part of the conspiracy too (looking at you CM! )?
    ...Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V.

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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    like it states the president gets blamed reguardless but i also think that the preseident we have should stand up for what the american people want. Obama is absolutley to blame for not drilling on our own soil along with all the "environmentalists" saying that it will harm wildlife... maybe they need to look at the alaskin pipeline. everyone was extreemly against that but later they found out that the pipeline has incresed the wildlife population because it has provided warmth in the winter, it melts the snow so they can eat in the winter, it provides more of a shelter, ect. how can a president sit there and say "we will not drill on our own soil" but when you fly over the atlantic ocean leaving florida you see dozens of foreign countrys drilling a mile off of the coast of florida but we cant?!?!?
    if we drilled in our country there will always be a chance of a leak yes, but in actuality the amount of jobs it would create would be in the hundred thousands, the amount of money we would make off of sales would be more than what we are making now, the amount of money we would save on gas would be a huge payoff in itself and im sure we could get a reality show or two out of it lol.
    As we the american people dont make anything anymore we are very dependant on everyone else and we have to pay for everything because thats how the world works. if we start drilling we would be able to start pulling ourselves out of debt, we just need a president and some new congress to pass the bill saying it would be in our best interest to use our own land for something.
    it would also be a different story if congress had to live and abide by the rules that we have to follow that were set by them.

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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance View Post
    ... I am ABSOLUTELY sick of hearing about how EVERYTHING has managed to become HIS fault over the last 3 years. Amongst them: the bailout (Bush II's idea and signature as I remember it), pulling out of Iraq (Bush II's promise to Iraq originally and signature setting the date), etc, etc, etc...
    Well, his campaign theme was "hope and change". I haven't seen much of either. Not that it really matters who's in there among the choices we get. The parties have different ideals but the middle class gets screwed no matter which party is in power.
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    Say what again... Site Admin rforsythe's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by mastap07 View Post
    like it states the president gets blamed reguardless but i also think that the preseident we have should stand up for what the american people want. Obama is absolutley to blame for not drilling on our own soil along with all the "environmentalists" saying that it will harm wildlife... maybe they need to look at the alaskin pipeline. everyone was extreemly against that but later they found out that the pipeline has incresed the wildlife population because it has provided warmth in the winter, it melts the snow so they can eat in the winter, it provides more of a shelter, ect. how can a president sit there and say "we will not drill on our own soil" but when you fly over the atlantic ocean leaving florida you see dozens of foreign countrys drilling a mile off of the coast of florida but we cant?!?!?
    if we drilled in our country there will always be a chance of a leak yes, but in actuality the amount of jobs it would create would be in the hundred thousands, the amount of money we would make off of sales would be more than what we are making now, the amount of money we would save on gas would be a huge payoff in itself and im sure we could get a reality show or two out of it lol.
    As we the american people dont make anything anymore we are very dependant on everyone else and we have to pay for everything because thats how the world works. if we start drilling we would be able to start pulling ourselves out of debt, we just need a president and some new congress to pass the bill saying it would be in our best interest to use our own land for something.
    it would also be a different story if congress had to live and abide by the rules that we have to follow that were set by them.
    Saying "the American people" want to drill is a broad generalization. Obviously some Americans don't, and feel quite strongly about it. What amazes me is that it's all about the money as you highlighted, yet the oil lobbyists haven't been able to punch through the environmental veil. Then again, we've proven time and time again that we just don't have a foolproof way of accessing, transporting, and containing oil. It's not "if we have a leak", it's "when we fuck up again and again and cause catastrophic environmental damage each time". Creating a bunch of jobs and putting billions of dollars into the oil companies is potentially not worth it -- it's long term responsibility vs short term benefits. Personally I like the fact that it's finally driving significant innovation into other methods of powering our world, and is forcing us to think beyond dead dinosaurs.

    I am pretty sure that if supply was in danger and we had no alternative yet, we'd do what we needed to do. Then again that would mean we no longer have oil allies and the world hates us, which would make us a global target just like we war with other countries to protect the supply. Of course oil is the current impetus for a lot of people dying all over the world, so maybe finding alternatives is good in many ways...
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    Well, his campaign theme was "hope and change". I haven't seen much of either. Not that it really matters who's in there among the choices we get. The parties have different ideals but the middle class gets screwed no matter which party is in power.
    The only "Change" I've seen is that more friends of mine are out of work now than at any time I've ever seen in the almost 30 years of my professional career.
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    Business in the front, party in the back! CYCLE_MONKEY's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance View Post
    I have not gotten political in a REALLY long time on this board.
    For some of you who don't know - this is almost a shocking concept I've been able to bite my tongue this long... but no longer...

    Okay Obama haters: while I'm absolutely NOT pleased with the majority of his tenure (believe me I wish there was another democrat candidate stepping up to challenge him... hell I wish there was a true multi-party system in this country instead of this party-and-a-half bullshit)...

    ... I am ABSOLUTELY sick of hearing about how EVERYTHING has managed to become HIS fault over the last 3 years. Amongst them: the bailout (Bush II's idea and signature as I remember it), pulling out of Iraq (Bush II's promise to Iraq originally and signature setting the date), etc, etc, etc...

    ... So when a KNOWN conservative oriented and leaning think tank is telling you all it's NOT HIS FAULT on something, how about you listen for a change???

    http://www.cato.org/publications/com...have-increased

    ... Or are these guys now a part of the conspiracy too (looking at you CM! )?
    'Morning Vance. Well, I haven't seen the link yet, but I will. But, I guess I'm sick of hearing how everything that is wrong now is somehow Bush's fault.......
    --------------------------------------------------
    "...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

    -Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    I don't like this administration, but then again they are funding my project, so yay?
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by rforsythe View Post
    Saying "the American people" want to drill is a broad generalization. Obviously some Americans don't, and feel quite strongly about it. What amazes me is that it's all about the money as you highlighted, yet the oil lobbyists haven't been able to punch through the environmental veil. Then again, we've proven time and time again that we just don't have a foolproof way of accessing, transporting, and containing oil. It's not "if we have a leak", it's "when we fuck up again and again and cause catastrophic environmental damage each time". Creating a bunch of jobs and putting billions of dollars into the oil companies is potentially not worth it -- it's long term responsibility vs short term benefits. Personally I like the fact that it's finally driving significant innovation into other methods of powering our world, and is forcing us to think beyond dead dinosaurs.

    I am pretty sure that if supply was in danger and we had no alternative yet, we'd do what we needed to do. Then again that would mean we no longer have oil allies and the world hates us, which would make us a global target just like we war with other countries to protect the supply. Of course oil is the current impetus for a lot of people dying all over the world, so maybe finding alternatives is good in many ways...
    i agree with you about finding altenative sources of power. its a great idea it brings lots to the table.
    as far as electric cars, what are we going to do with all the lithium batteries we have to now dispose of??? not only have you paid more for an electric vehicle, you now have a higher electric bill from Xcel and you have to fork over $8000 dollars for a new battery every 10 years if your lucky not to mention the wear and tear of a normal vehicle to pay for. we also did create new jobs for that but we had to emit more polution to produce the batteries for a green vehicle... i know that Government Motors is doing great with the Volt right now. or you can go out and buy a diesel for a little more than a "green car" and youll get 5X the life out of the motor and it wont catch on fire.

    We have the largest oil shale in colorado that expands into the north west thats already tapped. there are oil companies out there that go out, drill for oil, find the oil, cap the oil, and report that they found oil because we can not drill for it. what sense does that make?

    out of curiousity how many times have oil companies fucked up again and again causing catastrophic environmental damage? why is it ok for other countries to drill a mile off of our coast line but not ok for us if it is such a concern? would we not be effected by the catastrophic environmental damage if a foreign company thats drilling off of our shores had a major spill??? i guess my question is where do we or where should we draw the line for drilling?

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    Senior Member TFOGGuys's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    I'm sick of the slick spin doctors on both sides, but the Dems take the cake. Blame everything bad that has happened on Bush II or the Republicans in congress(high unemployent, 1.5 trillion in EXTRA new debt), take credit for shit that BHO had nothing to do with (Osama bin Laden, the withdrawl from Iraq), and whitewash some incredible fuckups that should have resulted in the firings of cabinet members at the very least (Fast and Furious). Politicrats make my fuckin' head want to explode, and it's not even 9 am on Monday morning.
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    i hate politics lol im too young to understand everything thats going on but old enough to understand its not getting any better... it gives me something to discuss while im at my part time job today though! otherwise id be watching the clock, surfin CL, lookin at ebay....

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    Senior Member Ezzzzy1's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Americans in general suck at life and living. As much as we LOVE our freedom most people are not qualified to live a FREE life generally making bad decision after bad decision. When all their bad decisions add up what do you have? A MESS. Now multiply that by 150 million and you have what we call America.

    That said. Its no surprise that people think that all this mess is the Presidents fault. I mean come on? If you were able to first get people to admit that they personally have caused 90% of their own problems (through poor decision making) there would be no way you could get them to change their lifestyles. The withdrawals from having to live on a budget are probably worst than from Crack.

    As far as whos to blame for not drilling. Well I guess you could say it is Obamas fault but im not sure that is a bad thing. I think we have had too many Presidents "do what the Americans want" and look at where we are at now? On top of that I applaud someone that is willing to say "we need to take a closer look at this". The last thing america needs is an Gulf issue only on the Pacific Coast... Or a broken pipeline in the middle of Farm Country.

    Either way all of this is sad. I just saw that a troop shot up 16 people in Afghanistan that and we burned a ton of their holy books. If our government ever looked incompetent now is the time. I would say that our problems may be getting a little bigger than what we are dealing with here at home.

    What a lot of people do not put into perspective is that all the worlds "great" countries have (and will) fallen. I feel that America is falsely keeping its head above water and thats a really scary thing. We are not what we once were, the core of our values as a country have fallen apart and have been forgotten. There are a lot of things that we as a country do that look good on paper but make no sense in life. There is soo much corruption and lying that there probably is no truth to almost anything going on.

    What is going to happen when the larger countries that we have agreements with start to realize that America is more of a problem in the world than any other country?

    I will say that personally there is nothing worse than someone that cant take care of their own shit but is always mudded up in everyone elses... That is exactly what America is to the rest of the world. Sad.

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    Senior Member Snowman's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    4 Paragraphs Vance?

    Where are your 3 to 4 page diatribes slamming the misinformed with facts and logic, burning each and every religious conservative zealot to the ground? This place has taken over by the far nut job right and is need of your house cleaning skills, man...

    Unleash, and let slip the dogs or war!!!!

    Oh and ... U.S. report: Oil imports down, domestic production highest since 2003... Wasn't there pro-oil president in charge back then?
    Last edited by Snowman; Mon Mar 12th, 2012 at 09:34 AM.

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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    I'm kinda diggin' this new Vance.
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    'Morning Vance. Well, I haven't seen the link yet, but I will. But, I guess I'm sick of hearing how everything that is wrong now is somehow Bush's fault.......
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzzzy1 View Post
    Americans in general suck at life and living. As much as we LOVE our freedom most people are not qualified to live a FREE life generally making bad decision after bad decision. When all their bad decisions add up what do you have? A MESS. Now multiply that by 150 million and you have what we call America.

    What is going to happen when the larger countries that we have agreements with start to realize that America is more of a problem in the world than any other country?

    I will say that personally there is nothing worse than someone that cant take care of their own shit but is always mudded up in everyone elses... That is exactly what America is to the rest of the world. Sad.
    agreed.
    i sit here and think why should we get involved with all the other countries and their problems??? we need to focus on us, get our shit figured out, figure out how to enforce the border because thats too difficult obvioulsy, i say legalize every drug known to man so all the retards kill themselves and make the wiser population greater, enforce the electric chair and for those who dont understand what an eye for an eye means now they will understand.
    i get along with everyone i meet, life is great, i have no issues with anyone, i just think that after so many times a person robs, rapes, kills someone else they should not keep getting a slap on the back of the hand.
    i also think it is BS that we as working americans have to pay for some low life to sit on his or her ass at home for years collecting checks every month not doing a damn thing. why do people get to do that? unemployment is high because the government is "too nice" and thinks that people need to pay their bills. i understand paying bills which is why i choose to work two jobs and havent taken a sick day in 7 years. i believe if people are collecting checks they need to prove they are trying to find a job. if you dont try to find a job you dont get a check for the month. simple.
    im done for now

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    Say what again... Site Admin rforsythe's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    The only "Change" I've seen is that more friends of mine are out of work now than at any time I've ever seen in the almost 30 years of my professional career.
    For me it's the opposite, but we work in very different fields. It might have something to do with our economy shifting away from mechanical production of things, to more of a technology-based model. If the US loses control of the Internet it will be interesting to see what happens to that model as well.
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    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    The only "Change" I've seen is that more friends of mine are out of work now than at any time I've ever seen in the almost 30 years of my professional career.
    I'd almost 100% blame this on the decade of financial industry shenanigans, letting them run wild, the public overspending, over-extending, partying like the dot-com boom never crashed, two massive expensive wars, and the real estate bubble from hell. NOT on Obama's policies. Repubs have some kind of crystal ball and think if McCain was in power, the economy would magically be recovering at some faster pace, than with Obama. This is the biggest load of shit IMO where the economy is concerned, especially looking at all the other western 1st world economies who are going the exact same thing, again without any intervention from Obama policies. I don't think it would recover any faster under Repubs. China & Russia have specific reasons they may be "on the rise", slave labor being one thing. And remember Chinese government did a MASSIVE multi-billion bailout similar to ours.

    But as usual, the Obama-haters are very one-dimensional in their thinking, when the WORLD economic situation is always in massive flux, not black & white. It's interdependent, and we can no longer be an isolationist self-righteous "island" that can do no wrong, as Repubs wish we could be.

    This is not an attack against you, just my rant, and opinion about how I don't think our economy would be recovering ANY FASTER with ANYone else in office. It's just the nature of the global situation and all industrial nations riding the gravy train for far too long, without consequence.

    Shit, old school Asians live modestly and save like crazy for decades before they buy their first little tiny house, WITH CASH. Maybe we can't do that, but we could learn from their wisdom! I'm a huge offender, so this rant is partially hypocritical, heh.
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    NDAA. Its not all his fail? I know. Just as it wasn't all bush's fault. Or clinton. But out of all those guy I can only think of one guy who promised hope and change. Obama is a pawn. Nothing more. Change? HA! he had his chance to do something. He gave us ndaa. If people here don't know what that is go look it up. As for comparison with bush. I remember back when bush was being called the most hated president and all that. Time for Obama numbers to br brought to light. Im going to get into this more later but please people don't vote for this guy just because he is your party. This country is fucked up and we need real change.

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    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by mastap07 View Post
    like it states the president gets blamed reguardless but i also think that the preseident we have should stand up for what the american people want. Obama is absolutley to blame for not drilling on our own soil along with all the "environmentalists" saying that it will harm wildlife... maybe they need to look at the alaskin pipeline.
    Just an FYI on the Keystone pipeline fiasco. Obama just ordered further review so they could reroute the pipeline and still be environmentally safe, and acceptable to the states where it will pass through. The Republican (and big oil) ads you see blaming him for killing jobs and causing rising gas prices is total horseshit. They just seized on one portion of the multiple issues involved with the pipeline. Read up on it.

    ALSO, FYI:
    Joe Romm has an extremely important post about the complete and utter failure of the "Drill, baby, drill" approach to energy security, and the absurdity of current Republican attacks that blame President Obama for soaring oil prices.
    In fact, under President Obama, domestic oil production has risen to the highest levels since 2003. According to the Financial Times,
    analysts believe the US was the largest contributor to the increase in global oil supplies last year over 2009, and is on track to increase domestic production by 25 per cent by the second half of the decade.
    Domestic oil production is soaring, but so are global prices. It should be obvious that yet more drilling can’t have any significant impact on oil prices — particularly since the U.S. Energy Information Administration has been making that precise point for years now (see EIA: Full offshore drilling will not lower gasoline prices at all in 2020 and only 3 cents in 2030!).
    The only thing that can protect Americans from the inevitably increasing oil shocks of Peak Oil is an aggressive strategy to reduce the country’s oil intensity (oil/GDP), including a steady increase the fuel efficiency of our vehicles — policies that conservatives have fought for decades.
    If you wanna blame someone for oil prices, blame the unertainty in the Middle East, blame the Jews & Arabs BOTH, blame the neverending rhetoric and wardrums being beaten by the Jewish and Muslim warhawks on both sides leading to uncertainty and spooking the markets. Blame the Iranian idiots for taking this to a new level, threatening the straight of Hormuz, and keeping UN inspectors out of their more secret locations for nuclear development. Blame America's very "selective and sometimes hypocritical" ongoing behavior of getting our sticky paws into EVERY political situation because we think it's in our benefit. Remember, Saudi Arabia is NOT OUR FRIEND, just because we have a huge base there. Blame speculators, endless oil corporation profits, etc. NOT OBAMA.
    I'm liberal-leaning independent, but not a hardcore lefty, I'm all issue-based, it varies by issue. In my opinion Repubs have generally always taken the side of big corporations over environmental issues. They could give a rats ass about endangered species protection, it's really sad. Even in the face of scientific research, they prefer to look the other way. If it was up to them, all our children would be drinking toxic waste, imo. But at least the offending company would survive and provide jobs, lol.
    Last edited by Ghosty; Mon Mar 12th, 2012 at 11:16 AM.
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    But as usual, the Obama-haters are very one-dimensional in their thinking, when the WORLD economic situation is always in massive flux, not black & white. It's interdependent, and we can no longer be an isolationist self-righteous "island" that can do no wrong, as Repubs wish we could be.

    This is not an attack against you, just my rant, and opinion about how I don't think our economy would be recovering ANY FASTER with ANYone else in office. It's just the nature of the global situation and all industrial nations riding the gravy train for far too long, without consequence.
    not all are one dimentional they just understand that when your in debt you shouldnt spend more lol for example;
    Lesson # 1:

    * U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
    * Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
    * New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
    * National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
    * Recent budget cuts:$38,500,000,000

    Let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:

    * Annual family income: $21,700
    * Money the family spent: $38,200
    * New debt on the credit card: $16,500
    * Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
    * Total budget cuts: $385

    Got It ???

    OK now,

    Lesson # 2:

    Here's another way to look at the Debt Ceiling:

    Let's say, you come home from work and find there has been a sewer backup
    in your neighborhood... and your home has sewage all the way up to your
    ceilings.
    What do you think you should do? Raise the ceilings, or pump out the crap?

  21. #21
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    NDAA. Its not all his fail? I know. Just as it wasn't all bush's fault. Or clinton.
    Not taking a stand on this, it's very sticky when you see both sides. But here's some info for everyone to add to their data when deciding good/bad. At least you can worry a little less about the evil NDAA. (And I agree with you that it's a threat to our liberties).

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...AA?via=siderec

    On the 29th of February, 2012, President Obama used a waiver to extract the nation out of the nastier part of last December's controversial National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) bill: the enshrining of Bush era policy of indefinite military detention for terrorism suspects in law.
    OK. This was not legally a "veto" - presidents do not have the line item veto that this would have taken. It was a policy directive as required under Section 1022.
    But legal experts agree that the waiver rules that President Obama has just issued will effectively end military detentions for non-citizen terrorism suspects:

    "Yesterday evening, the Obama Administration issued a policy directive that effectively negates much of the NDAA’s section 1022, the section that purports to require that non-citizens suspected of strong links to terrorism be held in military, rather than civilian, custody. Using a national security rationale, the directive reverses the presumption of military detention that section 1022 had established." says Joanne Mariner, director of Hunter College’s Human Rights Program at her blog Verdict.
    What Obama has done is to return terrorism cases to civil courts as the default - reversing the Cheney era practice of indefinite military detentions.

    Some good opinions on WHY Obama dare signed something he doesn't fully support, in the first place?:

    The President's opponents played the electorate like a fiddle and will get away with it because people don't seem to realize they've been tricked into being angry at the wrong person. He signed it because if he didn't, defense spending including benefits to veterans and their families would not have been authorized. The sections of NDAA that many people here seem to have a problem with are sections that were added into the document by primarily Republican legislators and which the President adamantly opposes but was powerless to stop. I'll repeat that: the parts of this bill that many people here hate were included against the President's wishes and in a way that he is powerless to stop. The only way he could have stopped these sections from being included would have been to try to veto the bill in its entirety, a move that would have been both political suicide as well as being futile, as Congress would simply have overridden him. He is explicit in his opposition to exactly the parts of the bill everyone here hates, going so far as to detail exactly which sections he opposes and why.

    You'll notice that the bill also restricts his ability to close Guantanamo Bay; this isn't coincidence. These sections are openly hostile to the President's stated mandate - they are effectively a giant 'fuck you' to the President, as well as a nasty way of eroding the President's support with his own base. Observe:


    • Draft legislation that is almost guaranteed to piss of the President but more importantly piss of his base.
    • Attach said legislation to another piece of larger, more important legislation like, say, the Defense Spending budget for the entire year so that any attempt to dislodge the offensive legislation will result in a political shitstorm, as well as place the larger legislation in jeopardy.
    • Once attached, begin a PR campaign that highlights the offending legislation and brings it to the attention of as many media outlets as possible - not just the traditional media, but alternative media outlets as well (Fox news, MSNBC, Media Matters, Huff-Po, Infowars, etc.)
    • Here's where it gets tricky: Simultaneously, speak to both your party's base and the opposition's. To your base, argue that the legislation is necessary to 'Keep America safe' and that the President, by opposing it, is clearly soft of terrorism and endangering the military by trying to strip the legislation out. At the same time, sit back and watch your opponent's liberal supporters tear into the offending legislation as being dangerous, anti-democratic, and a threat to civil liberties. You know they will; that's what they care about most. You've designed legislation that will make them froth at the mouth. You don't even have to keep flogging the message; one look at the legislation will be enough to convince most people that it is anathema to everything they hold dear. Because it is.
    • Pass the 'parent' legislation. Doing so forces the President to sign it or attempt to veto it. Since the legislation in question just so happens to be the military's operating budget, a veto is out of the question. The President must sign the bill, you get the legislation you wanted, but you also practically guarantee that your opponent's base will be furious at him for passing a bill they see as evil. Even if he tries to explain in detail why he had to sign it and what he hates about it, it won't matter; ignorance of the American political process, coupled with an almost militant indifference to subtle explanations will almost ensure that most people will only remember that the President passed a bill they hate.
    • Profit. you get the legislation you want, while the President has to contend with a furious base that feels he betrayed them - even though he agrees with their position but simply lacked the legislative tools to stop this from happening. It's a classic piece of misdirection that needs only two things to work: A lack of principles (or a partisan ideology that is willing to say anything - do anything - to win), and an electorate that is easy to fool.
    This is pretty basic political maneuvering and the biggest problem is that it almost always works because most people either don't know or don't care how their political system actually functions. The President was saddled with a lose-lose situation where he either seriously harmed American defense policy (political suicide), or passed offensive legislation knowing that it would cost him political capital. To all of you here lamenting that you ever voted for this 'corporate shill', congratulations: you are the result the Republicans were hoping for. They get the law they want, they get the weakened Presidential candidate they want. And many of you just don't seem to see that. You don't have to like your country's two-party system, but it pays to be able to understand it so that you can recognize when it's being used like this.
    http://danielmiessler.com/blog/obama...gning-the-ndaa

    First, under section 1021(d), the bill does not “limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.” Second, under section 1021(e), the bill may not be construed to affect any “existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.” My Administration strongly supported the inclusion of these limitations in order to make clear beyond doubt that the legislation does nothing more than confirm authorities that the Federal courts have recognized as lawful under the 2001 AUMF. Moreover, I want to clarify that my Administration will not authorize the indefinite military detention without trial of American citizens. Indeed, I believe that doing so would break with our most important traditions and values as a Nation. My Administration will interpret section 1021 in a manner that ensures that any detention it authorizes complies with the Constitution, the laws of war, and all other applicable law.
    .
    '08 Yamaha R1 (black), mostly stock. Past bikes: '98 VFR-800 (red), '01 CBR-929RR (white/red), '05 Yamaha R6 (white), '08 Yamaha R1 (blue).
    '94 Supra Turbo 6spd. (black), BUILT motor/head, CompTurbo CT43-xx, '69 Dodge Coronet SuperBee tribute, 440/520 SixPack stroker, auto.

  22. #22
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Just an FYI on the Keystone pipeline fiasco. Obama just ordered further review so they could reroute the pipeline and still be environmentally safe, and acceptable to the states where it will pass through. The Republican (and big oil) ads you see blaming him for killing jobs and causing rising gas prices is total horseshit. They just seized on one portion of the multiple issues involved with the pipeline. Read up on it.
    if you didnt jump the gun and focused on what i stated lol i was not refering to the keystone pipeline. i also understand your statement with adding another oil rig on the ocean for the US will not do anything for the US. if you stop foreign companies from drilling off of our shores and we became soley depenant on finding oil for ourselves that is where we would see the drop in cost.

    i never said anything about oil leaks will not happen because they will. if you maintain the the motors, pumps, pipes exc, then you will have less chance of a leak to harm the environment. an example if you will, how often do you check your water supply line to your house? how often do you check your drian lines in your house? 9 out of 10 people will say never because its fine now and there are no leaks. the 1 percent does because they do it for a living and know what to look for. not saying this will prevent anything but the more often it is monitered the less chance for a leak.

    on the point of republicans not caring about wildlife is a false statement. im not far right as would would put it either but i guess more republicans would look at the budget and say what it better for americans, a job or an endagered animal in there box on the side of the road?

  23. #23
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Good points and taken to heart, thanks. And yes I knew you were talking about the Alaskan line and understand your info there. I just saw an opportunity to mention Keystone, since it's the current related hot topic.
    .
    '08 Yamaha R1 (black), mostly stock. Past bikes: '98 VFR-800 (red), '01 CBR-929RR (white/red), '05 Yamaha R6 (white), '08 Yamaha R1 (blue).
    '94 Supra Turbo 6spd. (black), BUILT motor/head, CompTurbo CT43-xx, '69 Dodge Coronet SuperBee tribute, 440/520 SixPack stroker, auto.

  24. #24
    Gold Member salsashark's Avatar
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    Re: For the O haters... a thought.

    Republicans = borrow and spend
    Democrats = tax and spend

    Tax... Borrow... It doesn't matter.

    Until the amount our government is spending is less than its taking in, we're boned.

    Just ask Greece.
    Do not put off living the life you dream of. Next year may never come. If we are always waiting for something to change...
    Retirement, the kids to leave home, the weather or the economy, that's not living. That's waiting!
    Waiting will only leaves us with unrealized dreams and empty wishes.

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