Regrettably, the fault does not change the reality. And with due deference to the many social and political injustices that exist, I just don't want to see anymore movie-goers, or High School students, or young Greenwood Village office professionals, or 5 and 6 year old children and their teachers get massacred. That's the world that I spend the bulk of my day in, so that is what hits closer to home. I'm not chasing a phantom utopia...
Egh... Comments like that Dave, just make me sad because it makes me wonder just how unaware you really must be, to the slaughters that are perpetuated seemingly every other moment with gun violence. You and I could probably go many lifetimes without the need to attempt to protect ourselves from (our or any) government, but your talk of "going down with a fight and with honor" misses the forest for the trees, with regard to what is really happening in our country today.
Last edited by ~Barn~; Sat Dec 29th, 2012 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Response to Bueller...
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Good thing the founders of this country didn't succumb to such thinking. England was the most feared and well-equipped military power in the world when they got run out of this country. Among many examples in history, the Soviets got chased out of Afghanistan despite an overwhelming military advantage. See my post in the recent gun topic about how the Polish Jews held off the Nazis for months with literally a handful of small arms.
Guerilla warfare has a very different dynamic than battles between national armies. I certainly wouldn't want to lead a million-person army, no matter how well equipped, against a 100-million strong group of highly motivated people, even if they only had small arms.
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"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
Oh and by the way, I use my ARs for sport, target shooting, for fun, its a hobby that I really enjoy and I'm not hurting anyone. I may use it for competition and/or hunting someday, I know people that use it for hunting.
You could say that it can be used to hurt someone but you could say that about anything. Does that mean that we need to ban everything?
No one is denying the violence that goes on. What many of us are saying is that the solution to reducing the violence is not keeping law-abiding citizens from owning weapons. Maybe we should start with doing a better job of keeping violently psychotic people off the streets? History is replete with examples of the murders of millions, yes MILLIONs (170 million in the 20th century), of people who were disarmed in the name of public safety. An unarmed populace emboldens a government to restrict liberty, and seeing what our own government has been doing recently, I have no doubt whatsoever that our "leaders" would descend into tyranny with the best of intentions. Look at the shit that was going down in New Orleans after Katrina, with cops murdering citizens when that thin veneer of civilization was washed away,
Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
Nobody wants to see kids or innocent people gunned down or blown up and we can all agree on that. The problem is is that you can not pin this problem on something material and say guns are the problem. People are the problem but it gets complicated when you go down that road. Could you someday piss off a cop, have him claim you as unstable and lock you up because of mental disorders. The bottom line is is that you cannot protect everyone from everything. If you try all you will do is continue to add laws that will become your own prisons.
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This is a very scary statement. You should never be happy about giving up rights for the idea of safety. So the idea of the feds making a national gun registry makes you happy? Being a teacher I’m sure you have heard the term every action has a opposite and equal reaction. What could some of those reactions be? How about full on civil war in America?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8N91O04EhE
See I’m happy YOU have the right to choose if you should have a firearm or not. Let me ask you how you would feel if the script was flipped and the argument was if people should be FORECED to be armed 24/7?
Yeah I guess crimes in Colorado don’t happen.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cocrime.htm
You honestly need to choose your friends better. The only person I have ever met who shot himself was a complete idiot. I would never consider that person a friend and I would never go out of my way to be a friend with that person. The next time your neighbor leaves his door open and guns are in the open call the police. Simple fix.
Really there is no statistics on crime and lack of guns? How do you explain the violence in cities that have the most gun laws? How about jump in crimes when the honest people are disarmed in other countries?
Australia.
In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847
Well I have had to carry to protect myself. Ever had a few crazy tweekers hell bent on killing you because your friend couldn’t find them weed? They pulled a drive by on my house and another friends house that my friend was known to stay at. They let us know that just because he was our friend they would kill us. No other reason. Just because I was friends with someone.
So your opinion should dictate MY life? What do you mean the second amendment wasn’t created for what we are talking about today? At the bottom of my post there is three videos I want you to watch. The second amendment is the last line of defense against tyranny. Because it’s the 21st century tyranny no longer exists?
Our government has never been so out of control before. Its sad to me to see a person like yourself that has had their mind twisted into this kind of thinking. For some reason you have some how fallen for the idea that guns are the problem.
“by failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
Benjamin Franklin.
No gun ban will fix this. No gun law at all will fix this. Take them away or give them to everyone will not fix the mentally ill. Only dealing with how to actually treat these people will help in fixing that problem.
That is a very bold statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932012)
Not one gun was used.
Actually they say it bought some time to save lives. The deputy engaged the shooters and then helped rescue kids. Also back then the protocol was to wait for swat for those things. These tactics have changed with active mass shooting scenarios. They have found that more often the shooter will kill themselves upon confrontation by armed people. Sure you can say that didn’t happen in columbine but there is a variable for ever situation.
To use the NRA and gun nuts own words: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Well ....if guns aren't the problem, then deal with the fucking problem! Everyone's ignoring the elephant in the room.
Last edited by asp_125; Sat Dec 29th, 2012 at 12:40 PM.
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I am happy for you that YOU have never needed someone armed to help you, but trying to compare life to one event that happened twenty years ago isn’t a very good example. Not to mention the shooters in that bank robbery had full auto ak’s and body armor. The police couldn’t pierce their armor so they had to get weapons. I am happy you bring up California as these new regs that are being proposed are basically from California. Let me ask you this, if these gun laws worked why does California still have so much gun crime?
Unlike for you many peoples lives have been SAVED buy guns.
http://americanfreepress.net/?p=7816
On December 11, Jacob Tyler Roberts, 22, wearing tactical clothing and a hockey mask, randomly opened fire on shoppers and employees in the Clackamas Town Center shopping mall in ClackamasCounty, Oregon, killing two people and seriously wounding a third before committing suicide. Three days later, after allegedly murdering his mother while she slept, Adam Lanza, 20, allegedly shot his way into Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, and viciously murdered 20 first-graders and six adults before taking his own life.
Although it appears that both incidents may be the work of mentally-ill individuals, the latter sent severe shock waves across the planet of an intensity not exhibited since the 9-11 false-flag attacks over 11 years ago. Sadness gripped the country and Americans openly sobbed for the innocent lives that were so savagely ended.
Although it seems nearly certain that some sort of gun control legislation will pass Congress in next year’s session and be signed into law, it’s worth remembering that guns are responsible for saving many more lives than they are given credit for in the corporate-controlled mainstream media.
Gun-Haters Seize the Moment
Leftist anti-gun zealots in D.C., N.Y. and L.A. should admit, once and for all, what they really want: the outlawing of privately-owned firearms by American citizens. Of course they’ll never reveal their true motives, so instead tragedies such as the Newtown massacre are exploited to erode our Second Amendment rights.
The unspoken secret harbored among these gun-hating movie stars and politicians is that many of them have concealed carry permits, as do their armed bodyguards. Plus, they work in buildings protected by metal detectors and security personnel that brandish weapons. In other words, they’ll remain safe, but nobody else will.
As news broke regarding the Sandy Hook school shooting, it didn’t take long for NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg to declare, “[Obama] needs to send a bill to Congress to fix this problem. Calling for ‘meaningful action’ is not enough. We need immediate action.” What Bloomberg failed to mention was that Connecticut already has some of America’s most severe gun control laws.
Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) pronounced that Obama should “exploit” this heartbreaking situation, whereas Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) sneered, “The NRA is an enabler of mass murder, and it’s time we stood up to them.” However, both of these legislators neglected to tell constituents that on the same day as the Connecticut murders, a man in Beijing, China wielded a knife—not a gun—to attack 23 children inside their elementary school.
On the West coast, Hollywood bleeding hearts such as Alec Baldwin, Michael Moore and Mia Farrow all demanded “gun control now,” as did newsman Keith Olbermann. CNN talk show host Piers Morgan had an on-air meltdown, comparing Sandy Hook to Scotland’s 1996 slaying of 16 children inside a school. “This is America’s Dunblane,” Morgan frothed. Finally, MSNBC blowhard Ed Schultz called the Founding Fathers who wrote our Second Amendment “slave owners.”
For his part, only two months ago during the second presidential debate, Barack Obama specifically floated the notion of “getting an assault weapons ban introduced.” As his former chief of staff Rahm Emanuel once famously quipped in true Machiavellian fashion, “Never let a serious crisis go to waste.”
Dave Workman Interview
One day prior to the Sandy Hook tragedy, AMERICAN FREE PRESS interviewed Dave Workman, senior editor at The Gun Mag, the official publication of the Second Amendment Foundation, a nonprofit organization that works tirelessly to protect Americans’ inalienable right to bear arms.
Saddened by the senseless tragedies, Workman said: “These are rare events, and because they don’t happen all the time they’re obviously high profile. As the media says, ‘If it bleeds, it leads.’ When news stories like this surface and flash across the country they receive plenty of coverage. It gives the impression that America is a violent country but that’s not necessarily correct.”
Confirming a previous AFP report from the August 13, 2012 edition, Workman said, “Over the past five years, there’s been a steady increase in firearms sales and concealed carry permits. Plus, more people that have never owned a gun are also purchasing them for the first time. Yet, during this same period, the violent crime rate has steadily decreased. If you check FBI statistics, they speak for themselves.”
Well versed on this subject, Workman stressed: “These numbers clearly point out that it was a myth to begin with when the gun prohibition lobby claimed that more weapons in private hands would lead to more crime. It’s nothing but scare rhetoric.”
The irony here, added Workman, is that the exceptions to America’s declining crime rate are largely located in cities that have banned guns.
“If you look at large municipalities like Chicago, L.A., D.C. and Detroit that have higher crime rates, they’ve also enacted strict firearms laws,” said Workman. “Citizens can’t fight back even though they possess a constitutionally protected civil right to do so.”
When asked why certain groups can’t seem to connect the dots, Workman replied, “The progressive mindset is one of denial. They refuse to acknowledge that one of their core beliefs may in fact be wrong, or that they were mistaken. Without an evolution of thought or a process of maturity, they can’t deal in a logical adult way with proof that everything they believed about guns being bad was wrong. The core of their foundations would be shaken to the ground.”
Pertaining to this same subject, only hours after the Newtown massacre, Barack Obama vowed to “take meaningful action” to satisfy his left-leaning supporters. Workman’s thoughts on this subject were evident. “A lot of people are concerned that during Obama’s second term he’ll enact some sort of gun control legislation. Obama went on the record in 2008 with a Pittsburgh newspaper [Tribune-Review] stating that he’s against concealed carry. His record in Illinois also proves that he’s no fan of guns. If Congress handed him a pure pro-gun rights bill, I’m certain he’d immediately veto it.”
Obviously, the latest massacres will do nothing to change the impression that America is teeming with violence, especially to those residing in foreign countries with strict gun control laws. Workman observed, “They still think we’re the Wild West. It’s a cultural thing. People learn about us by watching our movies. These films make for colorful entertainment, but they’re a lot of hype and not very realistic.”
Similarly, Workman pointed out, “Following Australia’s Port Arthur Massacre, authorities confiscated a majority of guns. Of course, shortly thereafter homicides shot through the roof. Violent crime is also going way up in England. There, defending yourself can land you in jail. It’s a crime.”
Comparing their societies with our own, Workman concluded, “The Wild West was actually a pretty peaceful place because people knew the other guy would shoot back. Today in the U.S., taking out a bad guy is a public service.”
Cars are dangerous? You say this like yeah sometimes people get hurt.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1103.pdf
unlike guns cars are what? No a car is not a necessity. You could use public transportation or other means to get around. transportation is not a right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaEKB8pU2Tw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpOT7wR-wU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpOT7wR-wU
please watch these videos. These videos are about the feds illegally trying to remove private property from the people of Nevada. It got to the point that the feds made the threat to send in their swat team to fight the sheriff and his deputies.
We just can’t trust the American people to make those types of choices … Government has to make those choices for people.
Hilliary Clinton.
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans"
Bill Clinton.
Are we turning into Nazi Germany?
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/20-signs-that-the-nazification-of-america-is-almost-complete
so you might feel safe with the idea of only military and law enforcement having these guns understand that no gun ban will stop the criminals from getting firearms. At the end of the day law enforcement is not there to protect you. That is up to you and you alone.
No but it’s a start. It would suck to only have pitchforks and baseball bats.
I disagree with you everything you have to say here. To add to what dirk already said I will use a great quote from japan.
"You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
Admiral Yamamoto
Notice how we still cant beat these guys in Afghanistan?
People that are against the proposal of these bans don’t want those 5 and 6 years olds to have to grow up and end up having to use pitchforks to fight off the government we allowed to destroy this country. None of us want to see kids die but guns are not the issue. Mental health is. Until we deal with them they are still going to kill. Look at the guy that killed the firemen on Christmas eve. He couldn’t legally posses a gun. Did that stop him? No. What did he do? What he loves most, kill people.
Comments like yours make me sad because you have also fallen for this idea that gun control will fix this world. Also makes me sad to see you so blind to the real world that we live in today. The illegal wars that are being fought. The overstepping government control. The innocent people who are killed here on our own soil by corrupt police. Fact is this world is extremely scary these days and for you to not see how close this country is to falling apart saddens me.
No wad here... I just feel like you probably have some really good points and they are lost in all the other mumbo jumbo.
Believe it or not I share a LOT of the same beliefs of all the pro gunners on here. I have enough ammo and guns to make a small dent and if shit hit the fan and I would be a part of whatever the next steps were.
That said, I am a big fan of quality conversation that builds better pro gun owners. To me its not all about "if shit hits the fan" there is more to owning these kinds of guns and part of that has to be (in my opinion) fully understanding why people dont want them around. Its just flat silly to me to say we have to have them to defend ourselves 100%.
In all honesty I feel that the super pro gun guys hurt themselves in their points because their single "defense" standpoint is fairly irreverent to most people. There is more to it and if viewed the right, open minded way maybe we could all make some sense to people that otherwise are tired of hearing that excuse.
That said, if you are not "prepared" I guess the jokes on you (not you but whoever isnt).
What I have realized is that I am not a good forum conversationalist I think I push pretty hard back because the reality is that in a normal conversation a lot of the way people act and what they say wouldnt normally be said.
Its hard to address all the things said and all the different directions and then the trolling/interruptions.
Last edited by Ezzzzy1; Sat Dec 29th, 2012 at 01:33 PM.
I'm an easy going kind of person that don't take things too seriously and try to keep things light. To me, there's no need for drama for anything. Maybe my posts reflect that, while others are trying to keep it serious. But there's a point in there somewhere, you just have to look for it.
I guess I can only hope for the best and see.
I am against bans, but I am for restrictions.
In my opinion, anyone who is 100% opposed to any limitations on the 2nd Amendment has no right to blame or criticize the government for mass shootings.
I am sure the authors of the Constitution never had MP5s and AR-15s in mind when they gave citizens the right to bear arms. Back then, a long-barreled, single-shot, black powder muzzle loader was the only firearm available to common citizens - so there wasn't a big need for restrictions on magazine capacity, automatic fire, etc.
And the crowd goes crazy!!!!
Part of the real problem is that people wont say that they are for some revision. I think that it makes the pro gunners feel like they are not fully defending their stance and it makes the softies feel like they are in support of guns, even if its means to an end.
The misconception here is that the Second Amendment somehow grants the right to bear arms. The language used actually restricts the government from infringing on a preexisting natural right. Semantics, I know, but important in the distinction between right and privilege. True, the founders were only familiar with rifled muskets as it came to firearms, but that is the exact weaponry carried by state of the art militaries of the time. The framers of the Bill of Rights knew exactly what they were trying to protect: The ability of citizens to determine the course of their society, preferably through consensus and effective government, but also through force of arms if necessary. An interesting side note: Until after the Civil War, most artillery (canons and mortars) were privately owned and provided to army units by their owners in times of need. It wasn't until the Spanish American war that the US government bought it's own.
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Yes, banning any pistol grip that mounts forward of the trigger will most definitely SAVE SCHOOL CHILDREN'S LIVES!!!
Fucking-A bullshit, no common sense, ugh. It makes your blood boil...
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Or maybe its because we are tired of all these people saying its the guns and we want the REAL problem to br brought to the table. The idea of being in the 21st century means we have sone away with tyranny is laughable. How can you guys be keen on anymore restrictions when time and time again they prove to fail? How can anyone truly think that eliminating a single tool will succeed in safe guarding anything? Basically what you guys are saying is eliminating crowbars will stop home invasions.
Guns make it easy to kill people? Someone should have told Timothy McVeigh and Osama that.
Also guys against what the news will tell you this last shooting was not the largest school attack in our history.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
PISTOL GRIPS AND 20-ROUND MAGAZINES KILL PEOPLE!!!
Sorry, I'm frustrated. I want to easily buy any gun or ammo I want to, WHEN I FEEL LIKE, not dictated by idiots and panics.
.
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I know quite a few people in South Texas who hunt feral hogs with AR's, seems to be a good combination of rifle/caliber for that purpose. They feral hog problem is real bad down there, in fact the first night the new 85 mph stretch of toll road south of Austin was opened up there were three wrecks involving feral hogs crossing the highway.
Come on peeps. If all the guns are out-lawed and no one has guns then there won't be any more school shootings!
Simple fix, why all the resistance?? Think of the children! The children!
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I toured the jail in deerlodge one time and part of the tour was all of the weapons that inmates had made. It was amazing at the weapons they made out of simple materials. One inmate even made a gun out of a pen. Where there is a will there is a way.
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