The Democrats have ever intention of taking our guns...

[mtnairlover]

Damn, you guys sure know how to blow things out of proportion.

Ryan...I have a few choice words, but hell with it, this is getting just stupid. I was trying to make a point. No, I was not sitting here weeping over his picture...damn...why is it every time I mention something emotional everyone wants to pinhole me? Fuck! I was trying to make a point! Oh wait, I said that already. My point is...one side (gun owners) say they will die with their guns in their hands before giving them up. On the other side (non gun owners), you have people who have been affected by misuse of guns, in some ways tragically who would rather do away with guns altogether.

Middle ground?

Same thing that Randall was trying to get at...

Oh and right now...yeah, I'm just a tad frustrated cuz of this stupid medium and your assertions about me...you guys just suck sometimes, ya know. Might I suggest taking your heads out of your asses where I'm concerned.

Thank you!

[DavidofColorado]

Lighten up? Lighten up? Seriously?

You spend a whole thread being as serious as all get out...make a reference to something I have no idea about...and then expect me to "get it", cuz it's in "writing", on a computer screen, without facial expression....and I don't know you from Adam, cept from this forum...

...ummm...

Ok, honey sweetie pie....you wonderful hunka man you...

On another note. Here's my thoughts on gun safety education. Not even that works in all instances. Here's a story to back that statement up...

My ex in-laws live out in farm country. Practically everyone owns at least one gun. Practically everyone goes hunting and shooting. Not only that, but the kids are taught at very young ages how to handle a gun and how to use it "safely". They know where the guns are in the house and they know how to use each and every one.

Along comes my nephew....cute blue-eyed blond that he is. He loves his grandparents and hunting and shooting and everything that goes along with it. His Dad even owns a couple of hand-guns and keeps them safely locked away in their home here in Loveland. He understands all there is to know about guns and he's only 14. One evening, he gets a wild hair and goes on a search for the key to the lock box and the guns. He finds a gun, loads it, goes outside, finds a nice clear area on the pavement next to the house, sticks the gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger. His body wasn't discovered until two days later.

It's stories like that that make me want to take all your precious little toys of destruction, load them all in a massive rocket to the sun and blast it off. But...NOOOOO...the f'n 2nd ammendment protects your right to keep and bear arms. So, here I sit, with my mouth shut, and my opinion to myself. You can have your 2nd ammendment, but I will have my peace of mind.

The gun didn't make him do it. I think its a stretch to even blame the inanimate object. Why didn't you stop him if you saw him looking for the key?

[mtnairlover]

The gun didn't make him do it. I think its a stretch to even blame the inanimate object. Why didn't you stop him if you saw him looking for the key?

David...read this very slowly ok...

I was trying to make a point...read what I wrote!!! Don't make me spell it out.

And...you are making an assumption about me and my nephew...yet again with the assumptions...

Again...read slowly...I WAS NOT THERE!!! We figured out what had happened after the fact.

[Sortarican]

in quiet, peaceful Gainesville, FL, a place filled with people of the anti-gun persuasion...

Your Mason/Dixon Line is showing Dirk.
I wouldn't exactly call Gainesville the Boulder of Florida.

.... I think its a stretch to even blame the inanimate object....

I don't know, by what I've seen on TV, lots of people are killed every day due to pianos or 10 ton weights landing on them
(But I watch a lot of Looney Toons and Monty Python.)

[dirkterrell]

Your Mason/Dixon Line is showing Dirk.
I wouldn't exactly call Gainesville the Boulder of Florida.

I lived there for 11+ years and my description of it is accurate. I was there when the murder spree happened. I saw how people with whom I had vigorously argued about gun rights suddenly ran out and wanted to buy a gun when they realized that the thin veneer of safety provided by the authorities had been revealed.

Dirk

[DavidofColorado]

David...read this very slowly ok...

I was trying to make a point...read what I wrote!!! Don't make me spell it out.

And...you are making an assumption about me and my nephew...yet again with the assumptions...

Again...read slowly...I WAS NOT THERE!!! We figured out what had happened after the fact.

Well you added the proper happenstance to make it sound like you were there. I didn't think that you were though. You still haven't shown me how you got from your nephew killing himself to me giving up my guns for your peace of mind? I didn't have anything to do with your nephew.

[The Black Knight]

Damn, you guys sure know how to blow things out of proportion.

Ryan...I have a few choice words, but hell with it, this is getting just stupid. I was trying to make a point. No, I was not sitting here weeping over his picture...damn...why is it every time I mention something emotional everyone wants to pinhole me? Fuck! I was trying to make a point! Oh wait, I said that already. My point is...one side (gun owners) say they will die with their guns in their hands before giving them up. On the other side (non gun owners), you have people who have been affected by misuse of guns, in some ways tragically who would rather do away with guns altogether.

Middle ground?

Same thing that Randall was trying to get at...

Oh and right now...yeah, I'm just a tad frustrated cuz of this stupid medium and your assertions about me...you guys just suck sometimes, ya know. Might I suggest taking your heads out of your asses where I'm concerned.

Thank you!

Well I wasn't trying to pile on Cathy. I honestly was answering your comments in a very serious light. Having a loved one lost to a suicide is very serious. I'm sorry you lost your nephew and I in no way was piling on.

However, I only addressed your comments about your story(which by the way I read it as you NOT being there). And your comment about taking guns away just because they are bad.

Your last statement struck a cord with me that's still reverberating. I wasn't trying to pinhole you into anything. I merely went after your comments. If you feel that I piled on, I'm sorry but that's how I feel.

Now you can see the passion from both sides of the coin. You and people like yourself are passionate about gun control and/or banning weapons. That's fine and you are totally entitled to that point of view. However, don't for a minute think that myself or any other gun owner or Gun organization is going to back down from that kind of mindset. Because if we didn't, you'd have your way and we'd be gunless and have lost our Constitutional right.

To be cut and dry, the one point I can't fathom from people with your views or you situation(s) is why blame the gun? Why don't you blame the people who misuse guns(i.e. criminals commiting crimes). The gun doesn't grow feet walk around and commit crimes. They just don't do that and if I can't explain it enough then maybe it is a lost cause to try and help to reason with the other side.

A gun is a tool, a very effective killing weapon. It's lethal even, however in the right or wrong hands a gun takes on a different persona. You can't take away mine, just because someone else abuses the weapon. It's guilt by association in it's simplest form and it's BS.

The sooner more people realize that while tragic the events that happen when someone is killed by a gun(as in your nephew's case) are not the guns fault but the fault of someone who was NOT in control. To be brutally honest, blame is solely heaped upon the shoulders of those using the gun for unjust ways, whether it be for crimes against others or crimes against themselves. The blame rests squarely on the individual and no one else...

[Pandora-11]

Mtnairlover,
While I must agree with the premise of the guys' argument- guns ARE inanimate objects and can not be given blame for death of your nephew, I think these guys are seriously missing a sensitivity chip. I'm very sorry for your loss and KNOW that if the same thing had occurred to one of their loved ones, their responses might be mildly different...a la Bradys.

BK,
The choice of comparing this to the 19th amendment was truly unfortunate. Don't get me started on THAT one.

[DavidofColorado]

Mtnairlover,
While I must agree with the premise of the guys argument- guns ARE inanimate objects and can not be given blame for death of your nephew, I think these guys are seriously missing a sensitivity chip. I'm very sorry for your loss and KNOW that if the same thing had occurred to one of their loved ones, their responses might be mildly different...a la Bradys.

BK,
The choice of comparing this to the 19th amendment was truly unfortunate. Don't get me started on THAT one.

I have known a lot of people that have died and I never blamed the nearest thing to them. That is why I am not a liberal either, because I never bought into the sense of reality that would blame a gun for someones misuse of it. Sorry. But that seems a little off, a little crazy to me. Also Jim Brady didn't die either. He is still very much alive and his wife has found some busy work to make herself feel important. Paid for by this guy
<-------

[Pandora-11]

It says "might feel a bit different". You're preaching to the choir here.

[Pandora-11]

Women sometimes process these things differently. That's why you should be ever so glad that men "gifted" us with the 19th amendment. We keep them balanced.

[The Black Knight]

Mtnairlover,
While I must agree with the premise of the guys argument- guns ARE inanimate objects and can not be given blame for death of your nephew, I think these guys are seriously missing a sensitivity chip. I'm very sorry for your loss and KNOW that if the same thing had occurred to one of their loved ones, their responses might be mildly different...a la Bradys.

BK,
The choice of comparing this to the 19th amendment was truly unfortunate. Don't get me started on THAT one.

Nope, I've had family members die in bad ways and friends with family members that have met their death via suicide, hasn't changed my thinking one bit. It shouldn't, I don't care if that's called callous or not. I'm not going to trade in reason and logic for emotion and fear.

Pandora, have you ever had anyone pull a gun on you? I have and had it pointed at my head from about 20 feet away. While the details of this encounter is no ones business, I will say that just because I had a gun pulled on me(with a high probability of being shot) all of a sudden I'm anti-gun?? Nope, not in the least. My resolve was never to be in that situation again and to also make sure that if I were ever in a similar situation I would be armed as well.

How was it unfortunate of comparing Guns to the 19th Amendment?? We are comparing apples to apples(Constitutional Right to Constitutional Right) and if history is correct Gun Rights(1791) were around way before Women's Rights(1920). So I'm sure you'll run with this and paint me as chauvanistic or sexist. That's fine and you're entitled to that, however it couldn't be more from the truth. I firmly believe that women should be on the same level as men and should have had the same rights back in 1791 when the Constitution was coined.

However, it doesn't change the fact that I used it merely as an extreme example of Rights vs. Rights. But my example worked and my point proven, that's it's prefectly o.k. for people to believe that taking guns away is quite alright and in essense denying me my Constitutional right. Yet when I bring up revoking the 19th Amendment(in a hypothetical sense) it's raise for alarm. So in interest of being fair, what's good for one must also be good for the other. If not it's hypocritical.

Again, I'm not anti 19th amendment, but take it and run with if you like. Makes little difference to me.

[dirkterrell]

I think these guys are seriously missing a sensitivity chip. I'm very sorry for your loss and KNOW that if the same thing had occurred to one of their loved ones, their responses might be mildly different...a la Bradys.

And you would be wrong in that assumption in my case. My best friend of nearly 30 years killed himself recently. My aunt was murdered with a gun. I found no solace in placing the blame on the guns in either case.

Dirk

[Pandora-11]

BK,
Sometimes you can be completely right on EVERY point and be so wrong. Sometimes kindness takes precedence when dealing with the hurt. Go be right another time. That's MY point. Don't even TRY to equate the 19th amendment to the right to own an inanimate object.
Men are from Mars, Women-Venus. Now that doesn't even have to make sense to you, but know that women may be a bit different than you...you think?

[Pandora-11]

BK,
I don't own a gun or have I even been around one. Doesn't matter. The amendment stands as written as far as I'm concerned. Strict constructionist of the constitution.

Sorry, Dirk...I know you must miss him everyday.

[The Black Knight]

BK,
Sometimes you can be completely right on EVERY point and be so wrong. Sometimes kindness takes precedence when dealing with the hurt. Go be right another time. That's MY point. Don't even TRY to equate the 19th amendment to the right to own an inanimate object.
Men are from Mars, Women-Venus. Now that doesn't even have to make sense to you, but know that women may be a bit different than you...you think?

Well no duh! HAHA I know women are vastly different then men mentally and anatomically. That's kind of the nice thing about women.

However, me using the 19th Amendment as part of my point is still relevant to me. Because while the 19th means the world to you, the 2nd means the world to me. If you tell me that mine is less in importance(which in this case inanimate vs. live people) is correct, however you're negating my right to defend myself. You've just stolen my Amendment that says who I am as a person.

Just as you can enjoy the fruits of the 19th Amendment, so can I and will I enjoy the fruits of the Second Amendment. It's MY "right" as a MAN to defend myself. And I put that RIGHT pretty far up on my list of things to not lose.

If you don't believe me here's some quotes from my favorite President to ram home the idea:

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

“We established however some, although not all, its [self-government] important principles. The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed…”

And of course the quotes in my signature lend homage to the great mind that was one of our greatest Presidents(if not the greatest).

[Pandora-11]

ok, actually just giving you a hard time for your lack of backup on the haiku thing!

[The Black Knight]

ok, actually just giving you a hard time for your lack of backup on the haiku thing!

huh? lack of backup?? I'm not following you on that. All I said was it's getting a big gushy and gooey HAHA, there was no attempt to dismantle your haiku's.. By all means haiku away!

[Pandora-11]

Sending us off into the realm of PM land. Quit messing with my fun.


DANFZ1- Pandy here. Where are you?

[rforsythe]

Democrats->guns->constitutional interpretation->guns->haiku's.

Seems logical to me.

[mtnairlover]

Thanks Pandora. I do appreciate what you said.

Now, on to trying to wade through all of this mess.

Jason, David and Ryan...I said what I said because that is what is on the side of the argument FOR gun control. I made it personal, because you guys know me...hoping (for some stupid reason....I have no idea why now) that maybe you guys would get it. It isn't about me, or my loss...it's about the bigger picture. So, I'll say it again...

On one side you have gun-lovers...on the other you have gun-haters. Somewhere in between, you have gun control.

It does not matter to the gun-haters that the reason they were hurt by a gun just happens to have been because the person pulling the trigger had something wrong with him/her. And don't get me started on the whole BS argument that it's gotta be a "woman" thing, cuz it's so emotional.

Let me turn the coin here for a moment and ask you all this question. If there were no gun control whatsoever...nothing at all. Everyone can get a gun no matter who they are and all other laws are the same as they are now. What do you think would happen? What kind of society would we live in? What would your neighborhood be like? What would run down neighborhoods be like? What about across the country in some of the worst places to live?

Don't answer those questions here. Just think about it. Think about all the different kinds of people out there.

Now, think about this idea...your "right" to bear arms also hurts others...inadvertently, but it still happens. It's an idea, so don't answer this either.

My point is, gun control isn't going away. How can you make it better for you and for those who do not own guns? Why not try and figure out a way to make both sides happy?

[rforsythe]

Let me turn the coin here for a moment and ask you all this question. If there were no gun control whatsoever...nothing at all. Everyone can get a gun no matter who they are and all other laws are the same as they are now. What do you think would happen? What kind of society would we live in? What would your neighborhood be like? What would run down neighborhoods be like? What about across the country in some of the worst places to live?

I think we'd live in a society where murders using other kinds of weapons would be considerably less, and those using guns would be higher -- just based on opportunity alone. Beyond that however, the fact remains that if someone wants to hurt or kill someone else, the lack of a gun is hardly a reason that it won't happen. We'll still have a society of basically good people, governed by basic laws designed to maintain order, except that a whole lot more people might be armed -- and those who don't want to be, don't have to be. My neighborhood would likely be just about like it is now. Most of my neighbors probably own guns anyway. In fact given that we had a crack house 4 homes down busted last summer, I'm pretty damn glad that I and most likely a majority of my neighbors have means of defense.

What would run down, violence-prone neighborhoods be like? I'm guessing about the same as they are now. The criminals don't give a shit about gun laws and arm themselves whether they're "allowed to" or not. It's trivially simple to buy a gun on the street because laws only matter to law abiding citizens.

So let me ask you, if bad people wanting to do bad things are getting the guns anyway, what good does it to do make laws that prevent the rest of us from getting them?

[The Black Knight]

Thanks Pandora. I do appreciate what you said.

Now, on to trying to wade through all of this mess.

Jason, David and Ryan...I said what I said because that is what is on the side of the argument FOR gun control. I made it personal, because you guys know me...hoping (for some stupid reason....I have no idea why now) that maybe you guys would get it. It isn't about me, or my loss...it's about the bigger picture. So, I'll say it again...

On one side you have gun-lovers...on the other you have gun-haters. Somewhere in between, you have gun control.

It does not matter to the gun-haters that the reason they were hurt by a gun just happens to have been because the person pulling the trigger had something wrong with him/her. And don't get me started on the whole BS argument that it's gotta be a "woman" thing, cuz it's so emotional.
I never said it was a "woman" thing, you might just be alluding to it as it somehow got brought up.

Let me turn the coin here for a moment and ask you all this question. If there were no gun control whatsoever...nothing at all. Everyone can get a gun no matter who they are and all other laws are the same as they are now. What do you think would happen? What kind of society would we live in? What would your neighborhood be like? What would run down neighborhoods be like? What about across the country in some of the worst places to live?
What do I think would happen? I would think that more and more law abiding people would purchase firearms for their own safety. As I've said before and again. Law Enforcement is way understaff in order to be your personal body guard. So in one's best interest of self-preservation, one might go out and buy a gun for protection.

I hate it when people play the victim card, as if it's a valid point. There's nothing valid about playing the victim. Obviously people get made the victim through circumstance such as crime. However, whether or not you choose to remain in that situation is totally up to you and your family. You can either live in fear and don't go outside, or people and their neighborhoods can band together, take a stance and push the crime out. Fight fire with fire, this BS notion that you can reason with thugs and gangs is a losing cause. If people would just stand up and run these bastards out, then crime as we know it would diminish. Because in the long run, you'll have way more law abiding and good people then you do criminal and bad people.

No matter how you pose a hypothetical situation, my answer and stance will remain the same. Besides in your hypothetical situation, I'd still be in the same boat I'm in now. I'm armed at all times and have no worries whatsoever. So it would affect me very little. Awareness would increase as it should now, but that's about all I'd change.

Don't answer those questions here. Just think about it. Think about all the different kinds of people out there.
Just did...

Now, think about this idea...your "right" to bear arms also hurts others...inadvertently, but it still happens. It's an idea, so don't answer this either.
To be honest Cathy, that's not my problem that it hurts someone else. I pride myself in being as compassionate as I can. In working to be christ-like towards my fellow citizens. But I'm not stupid Cathy, it's a Dog Eat Dog world out there and some people are just bad. You can't hold me accountable for "people's feelings getting hurt" because I excercise my right to bear arms.

As I said before, people's lives and destiney's are up to themselves. Life is what you make of it. You can either sit and worry about it or you can stare it straight in the face and accept it for what it is.

My point is, gun control isn't going away. How can you make it better for you and for those who do not own guns? Why not try and figure out a way to make both sides happy?

How can I make it better? Easy very easy. Don't try and take my guns and I won't try and fight to keep them. It's a endless battle though and here's why. You can't make both sides happy and never will. Because most(and I say most 90% or so) of gun owners would be just happy if you left us alone and left our guns alone.

However, the gun-grabbers can't leave well enough alone and you'll always have someone that's gotta iceskate uphill.

I think it's said best again from my favorite prez:
"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

[mtnairlover]

So let me ask you, if bad people wanting to do bad things are getting the guns anyway, what good does it to do make laws that prevent the rest of us from getting them?

Hmmm...good point. You are a tad more positive than I.

I'm gonna go and think about this now. I wanna try and remember when gun control came about in the first place.