Sport bikes and ABATE

[mccolo]

OK, I posted this originally in the new members thread but not sure many people read that and I haven't gotten any replies so I'll try it here. This seems to be the most appropriate place.

I'm Ken, and go by mccolo. I'm a bit different from the rest of you I would guess because I don't really ride a sport bike. I do have a Kawasaki Concours, which is more sport touring, but it does have the body work and the Ninja engine.

I have an ulterior reason for joining this forum, however. I'm a writer and I write about motorcycles and motorcycling. One of the things I do is write for Examiner.com, where I am their national Motorcycle Examiner. What I would like to do is make this forum my portal into the sport bike world. For instance, I did an article recently about Jon Kuo, a local racer who is also an ABATE rider trainer and who had been sponsored as a racer by ABATE. In the article, which I feel is unfortunately one-sided, the ABATE folks talk about the organization's inability to get much traction with the sport bike community. I'd really like to publish a follow-up article to this presenting the feelings and opinions of the sport bikers toward ABATE and their efforts.

I'd also like to be able to touch in here from time to time to ask you guys about other issues I'm planning to write about. So how does that sound to you all? Anyone care to be the first to respond to the Jon Kuo article?

[UglyDogRacing]

Jon Kuo story link does not work -http://www.examiner.com/x-378-Motorc...to-sportbikers

[LambeauXLIV]

worked for me

[TFOGGuys]

Originally Posted by mccolo

OK, I posted this originally in the new members thread but not sure many people read that and I haven't gotten any replies so I'll try it here. This seems to be the most appropriate place.

I'm Ken, and go by mccolo. I'm a bit different from the rest of you I would guess because I don't really ride a sport bike. I do have a Kawasaki Concours, which is more sport touring, but it does have the body work and the Ninja engine.

I have an ulterior reason for joining this forum, however. I'm a writer and I write about motorcycles and motorcycling. One of the things I do is write for Examiner.com, where I am their national Motorcycle Examiner. What I would like to do is make this forum my portal into the sport bike world. For instance, I did an article recently about Jon Kuo, a local racer who is also an ABATE rider trainer and who had been sponsored as a racer by ABATE. In the article, which I feel is unfortunately one-sided, the ABATE folks talk about the organization's inability to get much traction with the sport bike community. I'd really like to publish a follow-up article to this presenting the feelings and opinions of the sport bikers toward ABATE and their efforts.

I'd also like to be able to touch in here from time to time to ask you guys about other issues I'm planning to write about. So how does that sound to you all? Anyone care to be the first to respond to the Jon Kuo article?

My experience as a motorcyclist of some experience (25 yrs on the street) is that ABATE has a perception problem among the sportbike demographic. ABATE has traditionally been perceived as the "Harley" advocate, with their continual opposition to things like helmet laws (a good thing IMO, on libertarian grounds, not safety). If they want to garner support from the sportbike community, they need to broaden their advocacy to include other issues like punitive insurance rates for sportbikes, and police profiling of sportbike riders.

My opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

[InlineSIX24]

Good article. Glad to see they are adapting. It would be interesting to get more detail about the specific changes that they made for the sportbikes and how the exercises differ from the regular class. When I took the initial class it was still not set up for sportbikes. Taking another non-Abate class that was sportbike specific made a huge difference.

[mccolo]

Ugly Dog Racing, here's the link again. I saw you on this forum and wanted to mention to you to check the photos with the story--I have a shot or your bike and your dog.
http://www.examiner.com/x-378-Motorc...to-sportbikers

[chad23]

i took the abate class a number of years ago and I have also taken it twice and had no issue with. I think fundamental riding is the same no matter what bike you ride. the only time a class makes a different to sportbike riders is if you are doing track time. but to ride a sportbike or harley to me is the same.
Eyes up and looking ahead, smooth shifting, dont jam on the brakes, ect ect. Its all the same.

as far as laws. hell its a good idea to wear a lid but, if some one chooses not to thats there free choose, we have enough laws as is. And to say they promote giving sprotbike rides a bad name, we a few riders even on this forum that do a good job at of that with out abates help. No different than harley guy having that bar hopping badass image. not all of them do that.

i am glad that abate is trying to promote classes geared towards sportbike folks and would say we all need continuing ed from time to time and if we can get it from a class that is geared for us, than thats just bonus

just my thoughts.... by the way welcome to the club

[mccolo]

Hey Ugly Dog Racing. Forgive my being absentminded. The Jon Kuo article was not the post where I had the photo of your bike and dog. It was an earlier one I did about the opening race day at High Plains Raceway. You were set up almost right next to Jon. Here's that link.

http://www.examiner.com/x-378-Motorc...Plains-Raceway

Now, I see they get shortened in the post so I'll break it apart and you can reassemble it. The other option is to go to
http://www.examiner.com/x-378-Motorcycle-Examiner
and go back to the post dated May 9, 2009

http://www.examiner.com/x-378-Motorcycle-Examiner
plus
~y2009m5d9-Matt-Lynn-Jason-DiSalvo-winners
plus
-at-first-ever-motorcycle-race-day-in-High-Plains-Raceway

[chanke4252]

I didn't see abate as being geared towards a certain type of motorcycle. The info that they present in their courses seems to be geared towards bikes in general and not one specific bike. Like previously mentioned, I think that more advocacy on abate's part for issues related primarily to sport bikes might be a good idea, but honestly I think abate is good for all riders, regardless of what kind of bike they choose to ride.

I think the main problem with abate and sport bikes has more to do with the nature of the image of sport bikes. I think it's apparent that immature/reckless riders tend to be attracted to sport bikes for their obvious performance and image, while the abate organization tends to attract more mature riders and people less interested in popping wheelies and blasting 100+ mph down public roads. So I don't think it's an issue of abate not getting much traction with the sport bike community as much as it is an issue of abate not getting traction with riders not as interested in safety issues and legislation that affects riders. So, to me, abate not being able to get traction with the sport bike crowd seems more like a symptom of another problem than anything.

As far as supplementary instruction, in response to people not wanting to get further training because they "already know how to ride", my guess would be that many of these people never got any actual training or formal instruction even when they started riding, so they simply don't understand the value of it. I mean it's easy to pick up a bike and get from point A to B, but an actual understanding the actual dynamics of riding is not necessarily going to come along with untrained experience. One of the most valuable things I got out of the abate training was an understanding of how little I actually knew, and how drastically different the learning process has to occur on a bike.

One thing you might want to consider, and probably already have, is how differently people see bikes in different parts of the country. Colorado is very bike friendly imo, and the riders here tend to gear up appropriately and not drive nearly as recklessly when compared to riders in other parts of the country. Because of this, I don't think that this forum alone would necessarily provide you with the most realistic view of motorcycling and sport bikes.

My long-winded, worthless opinion.

[Nick_Ninja]

[FZRguy]

Not so sure ABATE needs to offer sportbike training….there are already plenty of schools for that. Their current new rider programs do just that and are excellent. I have taken the basic and ERC programs and both were very good for me at the time. Any future riding schools for me will be track programs.

[Reyven]

[quote=chanke4252;471187]

One thing you might want to consider, and probably already have, is how differently people see bikes in different parts of the country. Colorado is very bike friendly imo, and the riders here tend to gear up appropriately and not drive nearly as recklessly when compared to riders in other parts of the country.

quote]

i totally agree with this part of your statement. I just returned from a trip to Iowa where I took my bike for the first time. Not only did I see less bikes on the road, but of the bikes I did see, only 1 rider was in full gear, and only 3 others were wearing helmets. That was after spedning a week there and riding around. So +1 on checking out other parts of the country where ABATE is offerred and looking at the ratios of riders.

[asp_125]

ABATE needs a PR makeover. Sponsoring an MRA rider is one step. So will support for local sportbike events. The only things I've seen are ABATE patches on leather jackets and their name attached to poker runs and cruiser events. That could be part of the perception problem.

[Wintermute]

I got my endorsement from ABATE. Great bunch of folks. But it is a very cruiser-centric club, and there's nothing wrong with that. But we sport bikers are pretty dissimilar to them, in riding style (we speed up for corners) to attitudes about gear (AGATT).

For instance, while they do push wearing gear strongly during class, students see the instructors riding around with minimal protection on their personal bikes before and after class. Its a cruiser rider thing, especially among the old-timers, that their bikes' size/loudness, along with a leisurely pace, make them immune to "shit happens." And they're right 99% of the time. For an experienced rider.

They're willing to gamble against that 1% that leaves you dead, a drooling vegetable, or depending on the kindness of strangers to wipe your ass because you have 2 inches of gauze on each hand. Which is fine, your odds are pretty good to miss that bad roll of the dice if you're experienced, but what is the real % of "shit happens" for the noobs in their classes? 30%? 40? Hell, they even bring up the noob accident rates in the classroom training.

So that's my one minor quibble with ABATE. While they push AGATT in class, they often don't "walk the walk" and personally set a good example to the new riders who should be coaxed and reminded every second they're around experienced riders to wear gear.

[LambeauXLIV]

When I took the class, one of the instructors had an r1, and he showed up in a full 2-piece leather suit, boots, gauntlet gloves and helmet.

The only other guy that rode his bike there (a BMW) had a full textile suit, boots, gloves and helmet.

[Zuhalter Vati]

I agree with just about everything mentioned here. Also, when you look at the "majority" of Sportbike riders (not just on this forum) most of them are younger (18-30) and not interested in being active participants in the legislative process. Take a look at the "majority" of cruiser riders, they are mostly above 30+.

[asp_125]

Originally Posted by Zuhalter Vati

I agree with just about everything mentioned here. Also, when you look at the "majority" of Sportbike riders (not just on this forum) most of them are younger (18-30) and not interested in being active participants in the legislative process. Take a look at the "majority" of cruiser riders, they are mostly above 30+.

All the more reason for ABATE to get involved. If rider apathy means anti-sportbike laws get passed unopposed, the presence of an organization to give some voice might be a good thing.

[Zuhalter Vati]

Originally Posted by asp_125

All the more reason for ABATE to get involved. If rider apathy means anti-sportbike laws get passed unopposed, the presence of an organization to give some voice might be a good thing.

I fully agree!

[MetaLord 9]

Any instruction & training is both worthwhile and valuable, provided it's not promoting the wrong habits. It has been my personal experience that the majority of riders have not participated are not interested in participating in secondary motorcycle education & training. The stereotypcial sportbike riding kid and the stereotypical barhopping cruiser rider are either too petulant, too set in their ways, or too good for extra training so most folks don't see instruction past the original endorsement class, if even that.

I took, what I seem to remember was, an ABATE class last year and the instruction itself benefitted me greatly. What helped just the fact that I had a chance to practice pretty much any type of maneuvers on a closed course while someone watched with a critical eye. That said, I am very interested in seeing a more sportbike oriented version of the class that features more advanced & real world-type situations. I felt the class was more cruiser oriented, but even more disappointingly, it was merely a reproduction of the original class I took to achieve my endorsement, with the exception of my being allowed to use my own bike.

For an exprienced rider course, I was expecting a more taxing set of exercises and more real world scenarios to better my accident aversion techniques and defensive riding practices.

[mccolo]

Thank you guys very much for your responses. I have to say, you are telling me very different things from what I'm hearing in another sport bike forum where I posted the same question. I intend to use this information in a follow-up article to the one about Jon Kuo being sponsored by ABATE. I'll let you know when it's up and ready to read. Again, thank you.

[mccolo]

OK, I wanted to let you know that I just put up the first part of what became a four-part article on this topic. You can find it here:
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-3...the-twain-meet

For anyone who might have trouble with that link, just go to
http://www.examiner.com/x-378-Motorcycle-Examiner
and look for the article dated July 6, 2009, titled "Sportbikers and ABATE: Can the twain meet?"

I want to thank you for your comments and welcome any follow-up comments you have to offer, either here or as comments to the post. If it's all right with you guys I'd like to stay in touch from time to time to get your thoughts on other topics as they come along. Thanks again.

[LambeauXLIV]

Wow...such hostility from SBN

[Nick_Ninja]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Good to see that the CSC is more tolerant toward ABATE than the SBN bunch. I'll say this. I took an abate course out at old Stapleton. It was extremely thought provoking and a few of the tidbits that came from the instructor have saved my life ----- seriously. I might not agree with the position that ABATE takes on various political issues but if their training provided one helmet-less cruiser rider from becoming a statistic then ABATE can pat themselves on the back and consider their place in the motorcycling community accepted. As far as helmet laws are concerned -- let The Rider Decide.

[mccolo]

OK, part two is up.
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-3...dividing-point

Or go to http://www.examiner.com/x-378-Motorcycle-Examiner and find the article dated July 7, 2009 and titled "Sportbikers and ABATE: Helmet issue is primary dividing point"