Not sure if this is in the right section or not but I was wondering on the proper ways to brake in a turn. I do it my own way witch I dont believe is the RIGHT way. I have always been VERY nervous braking in a turn and only have had to a few times. Just looking for a little advice I dont mean to seem green.
Don't brake in the corner, do it before. Trail braking is an advanced technique, more of a track thing.
I try to carry a speed on the street which does not necessitate using the brakes to make a turn...
check the technique sections.... plenty on the topic.
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@ OUTLAWD Same here but I had a deer run out in front of me once a car almost clip me times like that you kinda need to brake. I hardly ever go into turns hot.
@Matty Will do I didnt know there was a technique section. I'm still new lol.
You didn't say emergency braking, that's another story.
Im sorry. I will try to be more clear next time.Originally Posted by Bueller
This.. the more leaned over you are, the less traction you have for braking. Noobs should try to brake in a straight line, or with the bike as upright as possible.
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go around said object or stand that shit up and get on the brakes hard
Been there done that and scared the hell out of me!
Yes, trail braking is an advanced skill, one that may save your life on the street so it is well worth learning! But be GENTLE and smooth...
Free your mind!
thats what she said
I have no idea what you're talking about.
If you didn't crash, good job. I cover the front brake with one finger at all times. Simple in theory....the more you lean, the more you need to ease off the lever. It takes practice, and a feel for available traction.
John
KTM Duke 690
agreed...it took ALOT of track riding for me to even start to be comfortable braking while leaned over on the street
I used to have a big problem braking into corners - freaked me out to be on the brakes and turning in at the same time. I just thought I was going to crash every time and it made me tense as hell. It made for some very bad riding on the street or track.
Here's a big secret for all of you - I fixed this problem in about 10 minutes with one simple thing:
Two up ride with a racer. Done. Problem solved. Confident braking from then on. I did about 5 laps with Rybo at Miller and saw how deep he was braking and got to actually feel what it was like to take a bike to its limit without freaking out about what I might be doing wrong. Best thing I ever did for my riding on the street and the track.
I do the same thing, 100% of the time.
Chris
There's nothing that will ever replace the warm feeling of a perfectly blipped 6th-to-4th downshift, that drops right lane traffic like 1st first semester chem-lab.
I'm against covering the brake at all times but that is because I only ride the track. Its rare that you have to brake without expecting it.
As for the street, just get used to how the bike acts if you brake while turning. Normally, it will cause your front end to compress, changing your geometry and making the bike turn steeper. Sometimes, applying the rear brake might be a better solution when it the turn, it all depends on the situation. Either way, anything that you are curiuos about, practice often in a controlled situation. That way, when someone pulls out in front of you or a deer runs in the road, you will already have experience with braking. The mental concept and reasoning behind how we ride will differ from rider to rider, so figure out what works and feels good to you. Bottom line- PRACTICE. Being fluent with reaction could save your life.
Casey D
Chris
There's nothing that will ever replace the warm feeling of a perfectly blipped 6th-to-4th downshift, that drops right lane traffic like 1st first semester chem-lab.
I'm missing how trail braking into a corner can save your life on the street. Emergency braking because something is suddenly in your way isn't the same thing as trail braking. Trail braking is to help you brake later into the corner, allowing you go faster through it. Emergency braking is to keep you from colliding with something right in your line. If something is in your line, then you should just plan accordingly going into the turn so that you're not in a dangerous situation. If something suddenly jumps out at you, then you're emergency braking anyway.
More to the question, you've only got so much traction. To use Keith Code's metaphor, your traction is like having a dollar. You can spend it all on acceleration, decel, cornering, or a combination thereof. The more of your traction you're spending getting through a corner, the less you have to brake at the same time. If you stand the bike up a little bit (not necessarily all the way) then you'll use less traction cornering and can apply more to decel.
Also, isn't braking in a corner something they teach at the BRC?
Last edited by MetaLord 9; Wed Mar 2nd, 2011 at 07:39 AM.
[SIGPIC][SIGPIC]
Trail braking and emergency braking in a turn are 2 different concepts. Braking in a corner is covered on page 37 of the BRC handbook.
It’s important to remember when stopping in a curve that the amount of traction available for braking is reduced. This is because a portion of the total available traction is being used for turning, leaving less traction for braking.
The key to stopping quickly in a curve is to get the motorcycle straight up as soon as possible so that the maximum amount of traction is available for braking. If road and traffic conditions permit, straighten the motorcycle first and "square" the handlebar (center the steering) before the brakes are applied for a maximum-braking, straight-line stop.
There may be conditions that do not allow straightening first, such as running off the road in a left-hand curve or dealing with oncoming traffic in a right-hand curve. In such situations, apply the brakes smoothly and gradually. As the lean angle is reduced, more brake pressure can be applied.
It is best at the end of a stop to have the motorcycle straight up. This is the reason to "square" the handlebars near the end of the stop.
Chris,
While I totally agree it's not the same thing and that trail braking allows you to brake "later" into the corner, when done properly it also will allow you to CHANGE your line in a corner, potentially allowing you to avoid an obstacle or accident.
Frankly I'm not a fan of riding at that level on the street. Like Outlawd I tend to ride on the street at a pace where I don't need to use the brakes heading into the corner, prefering to set my speed and execute the corner smoothly. In the canyons I don't tend to accelerate to tremendous speed on the straight, I simply adopt a pace that I can manage throughout the majority of the corners.
Emergency braking and trail braking are vastly different subjects, that makes responses in this thread challenging because it's possible to confuse the two.
Scott
P.S. I would like to take this opportunity to pimp my services - On Sunday, June 26th Chicane Trackdays will be putting on an event at High Plains Raceway. At that event I will have a grip of instructors ready to help you take your riding to the next level. They will be happy to work with you on skills like trail or emergency braking along with line selection, throttle control and a myriad of other skills that directly transfer from track to street. Please let me know how I can help you get on track!
I'm not religious about the covering or not covering the brake lever. What's important is how to use the lever. If covering works for you, do it. If not, don't worry about it. Casey hit the important point: being comfortable in controlling the bike by practicing. You don't want to have to figure out how to do something in the second or two that you need to make a decision. It needs to be instinctual.
Instruction from experienced riders can be very helpful. Riding at a a place like IMI when it's not too crowded, and working with someone will allow you to practice things without having to worry about other things like cars. Start easy and progressively increase so that you become comfortable with interpreting what the bike is telling you. If you are smooth with your inputs to the bike and you understand what the bike is doing, you'll learn how to use everything the bike can do for you in an emergency situation. If you grab a handful of brake while leaned over because you panic, you'll end up on your head.
On the street, even at an elevated pace, I rarely use the brake. I recommend you try it at a comfortable pace, and then slowly and methodically pick up the pace until you start to feel the urge to use the brake. Stay at that pace for a while until you no longer feel the need to go for the brake. This will teach you to use the engine braking properly. A lot of new riders that I have helped over the years have had a tendency to be geared too high going into corners. Keeping the RPMs up will help you in a number of ways in a corner but mainly it gives you the ability to make speed adjustments that keep the bike much more stable than when you have to use the brakes.
But there will be times where you'll need to get on the brakes while leaned over. It's really not a big deal once you understand how to do it and others have mentioned the basic ideas. What you have to do is manage that contact patch properly. If you're on the edge of the tire, you're using the majority of the friction that the contact patch can give you for the turning force. You have to be very delicate on the lever. If you only need to scrub a little speed, you might be better off using the back brake, again smoothly. You just have to be careful not to lock it up, because if you do, you stand a pretty good chance of highsiding. Again, practice it in a methodical manner. But you might need to use the front at some point, so you should practice that. Learn what the bike feels like as you apply the front brake while leaned over. Casey described what happens, now go out and see what it feels like. Empty parking lots work great.
The biggest thing that will help you in braking is learning how to properly apply the brakes. A lot of newer riders tend to treat them as an on-off switch but that is a sure way to end up surfing the asphalt. The input controls, steering/brakes/gas, should be thought of as dials that you ramp up and ramp down. In braking, you will find that a gradual apply and release action keeps the bike much more stable than an instant on and off. As an example, if you're on the brakes with the bike straight up for 5 seconds, after the first second you might be at 30% braking, after two seconds 80%, at three seconds 100%, after four seconds, 30% and back to 0 at five seconds. The slow application allows the suspension to deal smoothly with the back to front weight transition and give the tire time to bite into the road, giving you more braking power. If you instantly go to 100%, the front tire is being asked to grip harder but it isn't being pushed into the road as hard and you'll probably lock it up. Practice that gradual application until it becomes second nature. Try braking with just your index finger. It will give you all the power you need to do a stop but help you avoid ramping up too quickly. Even when racing, trail braking hard up to the apex, I only use one finger.
Now, how about doing the above when you're leaned over? It's the same idea, except that now we're balancing the friction needed for turning with the friction we need for braking. Obviously you can't go to 100% when you're on the edge of the tire. How much can you go? That depends on the conditions and your tires. With heated up race slicks you have quite a bit more than you have on cold sport-touring tires. If you're riding on the street, you should never put yourself in the position of having to know exactly where that limit is. You should be riding at a pace that leaves you plenty of room to react and stop before you need to worry about your braking limit at the edge of the tire. On the track, you can explore that limit more safely. But the basic idea is still there: smoothly apply the brake, ramping up to the maximum and ramping back down. Learn to do the same thing with the throttle.
Once you master smooth inputs, you'll have much better control over your bike and be able to deal with situations as they arise. Modern bikes and tires can do really amazing things if you know how to make smooth inputs to the bike. Practice and learning from experienced riders will get you there.
Dirk
Last edited by dirkterrell; Wed Mar 2nd, 2011 at 08:53 AM.
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I don't think anyone can put it any better than Dirk has.
Dirk we need to sticky that post.
When life throws you curves, aim for the apex
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